h*h
发帖数: 27852 | 1 你这话毫无逻辑
美国现在医疗保险这么贵，是因为美国没有搞single payer. 其他发达国家已经证明了
，医疗保险只能搞single payer |
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J*V
发帖数: 3150 | 2 【 以下文字转载自 USANews 讨论区 】
发信人: lqm1989 (Jeremy Lin), 信区: USANews
标 题: The Myth of Health Care's Free Market By David Cay Johnston
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Mon Jan 6 00:33:29 2014, 美东)
The Myth of Health Care's Free Market
By David Cay Johnston / January 03 2014 1:05 PM
Ever wonder why an appendectomy costs $8,000 in one place and $29,000
elsewhere? REUTERS/Jim Bourg
Has it ever occurred to you to negotiate with the pilot of the plane you
just boarded about her pay?
Assuming the pilot was willing to take bi... 阅读全帖 |
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c****n
发帖数: 21367 | 3 do you think current tax payer paid, no-incomer eligible,
"free" elementary education should be banned?
should those people who can but do not work,
be educated by tax payer's money?
on |
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c****n
发帖数: 21367 | 4 let me remark the reasoning behind medicare
"who earns more money is who lobbies this policy"
medicare is completely a robbery. buying products with
market price and try to deliver it as a general coverage is
a disaster. this has nothing to do with whatsoeverism.
can you image privatizing all schools and making laws
to enforce every school age children must have education?
who would earn more money?
of coz tax payer is the single payer, lol
if you want to go socialistic way, the government has t |
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y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 5 where is free road? free school?
they are all paid by tax payers, heck!
paid by tax payer to indoctrinating kids to warship obama?! f*ck! |
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y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 6 "The federal congressional pension is simply a direct line into tax payers
wallet. There is no investment to be made, no fund balances to get worried
about, whatever the liability is given the years, tax payer cough up the
money for it."
btw, as of today, congress'approval rating is sitting at 18%, the lowest in
gallup records. |
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N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 7
It takes two to dance, alright? No one forces you to participate in the 40X
gamble on the derivatives. That's your own decision. If you win, you
keep all the profit. But if you lose, tax payers have to pay it for you?
Typical liberals' behavior: Whenever failing to clean up their own acts
be it health care charge or personal financial abyss, shift it onto the
other tax payers and force them to shoulder the loss. |
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T**********1
发帖数: 2406 | 8 In your example, the two people from Yale and Gerogetown should not have
gotten the money from tax-payers to
waste on things that have no return. Yes they can go to school, but only if
they can pay for it or if somebody is willing
ot invest in them for a return on the investment.
This country is broke. It is not like America can continue to waste money
like this. Wake up!
Your last point is almost right, but not exactly. As a matter of fact, the
rich people are also losing wealth due to
cur... 阅读全帖 |
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y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 9 so what?
collective bargain is bargain your pay, dont forget, we the tax payers
paying for you guys, not bloody sucker capitalist.
while tax payers earning less than you guys, losing jobs, working hard
everyday to make a living.
what makes you think you deserve right to rob money from them? |
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l****z
发帖数: 29846 | 10 Senator Chris Dodd Democrat is one of the two major culprits leading to the
housing meltdown. He kept the Senate from acting while Democrat Barney Frank
kept the U.S. House from taking steps to deal with scandals leading to the
collapse of CountryWide Mortgage and the scandals at Fannie Mae and Freddie
Mac all led by Clinton Cronies and involving Rahm Emanuel.
In May 2007 Barney Frank and the Democrat-controlled House passed GSE reform
legislation. Legislation which was adamantly opposed by the ... 阅读全帖 |
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k***n
发帖数: 3158 | 11
It is not that history does not repeat itself, it is your example is
a totoally different case.
It is the current foreign polich that does not leave us tax payer alone
when they are wasting our tax payers' money on either domestic welfare
or policing the world, Dr Paul and his followers just want to have their
voices out and try to cut these wastes
you can think whatever you want |
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l****z
发帖数: 29846 | 12 Changes Meant to Protect the Poor Are Mandating Bigger Alimony Payouts
By SOPHIA HOLLANDER
When New York adopted no-fault divorce in 2010 after decades of failed
attempts, lawyers and families praised legislators for eliminating the need
for one of the bitterest elements of a divorce: assigning blame.
More than a year later, critics say more troubling aspects of the reform
package have emerged.
A New York divorce law passed in 2010 set a strict formula for judges
awarding temporary alimony. Sond... 阅读全帖 |
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s****7
发帖数: 2507 | 13 hospitals cannot deny the treatment of the uninsured. In the end, it is the
tax payers who would pay the bill through medicare/medicade tax and higher
health care cost.
those uninsured are taking advantage of the regular tax payers which have
insurance. |
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m******n
发帖数: 6327 | 14 决定医疗价格的，归根结底还是人命的价值。人命不值钱的地方，医疗费用就低。
所谓single-payer system，single-payer就是政府，政府把所有病人医疗费包下来。
问题就来了，每个人都要求用最小的代价得到最多的医疗服务，政府如何裁决哪些服务
报销，哪些不报？政府统一划线的结果就是一些价格昂贵的费用不能报，英国不少老年
病人的死亡就是因为政府不同意继续治疗。如果没有政府的介入，本来是各个家庭自己
的事。
贵。
or |
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P*********0
发帖数: 4321 | 15 Fact -
1. US spends the most in the world on healthcare, $8000 per capita
2. US ranks 37th in the world on healthcare service. #1 France spends only
half of that number
3. The best healthcare system is single payer system. Obamacare is nowhere
near it
Here it goes (in the order of water-down) -
Single payer system -> public healthcare -> public option -> mandate with
opt out -> pure private healthcare
And yellow t-bags are scared? |
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y****t
发帖数: 10233 | 16 i tell you what is the difference.
if you sell a dollar on the penny by printing out tax payers money, no
private sector can compete.
when you are going down and bailed out by taxpayers money, no FED circle
outsider can survive.
this is pure government controlled economy on tax payers dollar, and that's
where free market economy die.
wamu is dead, became part of chase, one of the fed banks.
while long live GSE and GS on taxpayers dollars.
through
gained
dramatically
held |
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r***l
发帖数: 9084 | 17 顺便其他几个话题
媒体: 美国的媒体，包括报纸电视，大部分是liberal的， nbc最甚，abc其次，
cbs好些，cnn偏中间， pbs偏左但还好，fox是唯一的保守派电视。 大家无聊是左派还
是右派，都别光看自己的电视，看多了就被洗脑了。这些电视台其实也挺无聊，争论节
目，liberal的电视台就请3个左派加1个右派，然后3个左派把那个保守的攻击的体无完
肤。fox呢，就找3个保守和1个左派，然后那个左派被打的遍体鳞伤。 古语说，兼听则
明。政治类的东西兼听都不见得明，更何况只听一家之言呢。
工作输送到海外: 这个是最没意义的讨论。globalization是趋势，是完全市场决定
的。每年两党都拿中国出来打，指责对方输送了工作机会去中国。可那是企业的事情，
企业怎么赚钱怎么来。真要是把美国公司的中国生产都关了，美国这些大企业想不想活
了？ 要是把中国的进口都cut了，美国商店里面的价格涨个10~20%,老百姓的生活更是
雪上加霜。
美国政府雇员的pension和福利: 几十年前，很多美国私营企业和政府雇员一样有丰
厚的pension，但后来私营企业逐渐取消了p... 阅读全帖 |
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k***n
发帖数: 3158 | 18 as longs as they dont cost tax payers' money
who cares 堕胎和同性恋
if some people want to eat shit and dont ask tax payer's money
to deliver shit to them, they have every right to eat it at home.
GOP is for small government so it should not ask the government
to regulate people's personal lives. |
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c***e
发帖数: 1207 | 19 就算是住在Florida 也极少会有一年要逃难三次的情况。这次Sandy来袭，州长发话，
don't be stupid, get out! （我挺欣赏这位直来直去的胖家伙） 大家根据自己的实
际情况或投亲靠友，或订hotel， 开车或坐飞机，各自避难，是辛苦，但他们都有安全
。肯定也有人不撤， 有些人特别是老年人不愿意动，总觉得自己过去在这里住了那么
长的时间也没有问题， 你可能还真没法逮捕他们，只能谴责。但Sandy来了，也得一切
后果自负。Firefighter 是不会在风暴中冒着生命危险去救猪一的，Sandy过去了，什
么时候来救也得看境况，淹死了，冻死了，也埋怨不了别人。
然后FEMA来了，是，猪一住在public school的gym里，有吃有住，有澡洗，纳税人付钱
，但也要看到逃难的猪二和猪三，首先他们听从州长的命令，自己出资避难，他们的
personal responsibility 给了他们安全，而且他们在风暴之后回到灾区重建也一样得
住shelter。 我当然不喜欢猪一这样的，为灾后救援平添不必要的麻烦，也许胖州长能
给他点颜色：
you didn't follow... 阅读全帖 |
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Q****r
发帖数: 7340 | 20 你老眼神不好。我的今天是我和我父母共同奋斗出来的。我从没靠福利读书，我父母交
了学费，来美国我也是自己缴学费。所以我不欠中国政府和美国政府的。我爹是黑五类
，连书都没资格读，自学成才，所以非但不欠国家，国家还倒欠我家。所谓别的还有什
么福利，那也是因为我父母交税了。记住，政府没有public money, 都是tax payer的
money。你需要感谢的是tax payer而不是土工
贷款还钱天经地义，不知道你jw什么 |
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C****n
发帖数: 2324 | 21 National Debt is 16T now, and we all know it will reach 20T before Obama
step down.
What does this mean, we all know US needs to pay back its debt. But who will
pay it back?
The people who WORK.
That's right. You bought National Debt, and you think someday 10 or 30 years
later, the TAX payer will pay you back. But guess what, you ARE the tax
payer. You are paying yourself BACK!
If you stop working? Then the country goes default, and you lose your money.
The people who used your money in the firs... 阅读全帖 |
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m********a
发帖数: 1312 | 22 大胆!敢说自己是tax payer，赤裸裸的歧视welfare taker。And don't call it tax
payer's money, it should be called money for entitlement. |
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a*********a
发帖数: 3656 | 23 let s look at some selected issues:
1. IRS targeting of political foe, now with one of the political appointees
implicated. Who else wanted to use IRS to attack enemies? right, Nixon did,
but his IRS head had the integrity to say NO. Plus the cover up.
2. the NSA spying program which get again conveniently blame onto the Bush
administration during the 2nd term of the current admin. Of course the
current head of the admin fiercely attacked the Bush for violating liberty
during elections. NSA+IRS,... 阅读全帖 |
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a*********a
发帖数: 3656 | 24 这次黑人问题争论的导火线是Trayvon／Zimmerman一案。很多支持Zimmerman的，比如
我个人，是因为美国政府和媒体在其中扮演了可耻的角色。一边倒地偏向某一种族：
1. O8以行政分支最高领导身份，质疑司法分支。说“TM是我儿”。
2. NBC 恶意篡改GZ电话录音，挑起种族矛盾，博取收视率。
3. Sanford市警察局长由于不愿支持对GZ起诉被解雇。
4. 特派公诉人从外区空降Sanford，全盘接管对GM的诉讼。
5. DOJ派人到Sanford 参与抗议活动，"维持安全”
6. 暴光特派检察官对辩护方隐瞒证据的whistle blower被解雇。
7. 控方在二级谋杀无望的情况下，要求增加虐待儿童罪名。
8. 无罪宣判后，O8再次以行政分支最高领导身份，质疑立法和司法分支，煽动群众上
街protest the system. 变本加厉说“TM是我”。
9. DOJ在无罪宣判后，继续扣押GZ合法拥有的枪支。
10.DOJ在无罪宣判后，扬言要对GZ就种族仇恨起诉。
同时结合最近几年政府和媒体在种族问题上一边倒的偏向性：
a. DOL对雇主在用人时参考犯罪纪律提出诉讼。... 阅读全帖 |
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T**********1
发帖数: 2406 | 25 it is actually not tax payers' money they are spending.
technically, the money being spend is printed, not taxed.
so all who have money are being diluted and are paying for it.
but of course that is not accruate either.it is the productive sectors/
people that are paying for the cost.
a significant portion of the tax payers are not engaging in true productive
work, or you can say bubble-induced jobs.
since US$ is global reserve currency, it is actually the whole world paying
for it, not just Am... 阅读全帖 |
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S******4
发帖数: 2865 | 26 其实medical cost的疯涨已经涨了十几年了，跟Obamacare根本没有关系。楼主也没能
解释为什么Obamacare导致了50％的涨幅(because it doesn't）。
比较遗憾的是Obamacare也没有解决这个价格疯长的问题。
其实根本的解决办法就是加拿大和欧洲的做法：政府当single payer，给公民提供基本
，不太好的但可以保命的医疗保险，然后公司可以给员工买add on提供更好的福利。因
为政府single payer，用户多，势力大，才能把medical cost压下来。
但这个计划在美国现在的政治环境下不可行，共和党会疯了的。所以只留下了
Obamacare这个怪胎。国家大，利益势力多，改革难啊，中国现在要改革也是步履维艰
。 |
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l**t
发帖数: 6971 | 27
治本有人反对吗？问题是美国现行的医疗制度很久了，有压缩医疗费用的成果吗？他甚
至连动机都没有，反正能转嫁。
Obamacare本意是要搞single payer，而Medicare能够压缩医疗费用是已经证实了的，
事实是很多医生根本不收Medicare，因为rate太低。但是政治现实让single payer通不
过。我支持Obama，就是因为他比Hillary会办事，知道万事开头难，先走出第一步再说。
其实Medicare费用增长率已经在下降了，这点THR男护士也指出了。以后十年就是美国
的黄金十年，谁海归谁傻X。在加州买两个房子，剩下的钱买S&P500 ETF，五六十岁被
裁员就退休。到时候你和人口危机爆发的中国比一比。 |
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S**C
发帖数: 2964 | 28 What he said essentially is he will not push for "single payer" insurance
system, that's all. How to keep your old policy? Simple, pay for it. Look,
the policy coverage and premium can be changed by health insurance companies
before ACA, and they can be changed after ACA. You want to have a price
control regime or what? Single payer also? |
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m*********a
发帖数: 3299 | 29 $9小时，全职40小时/周，每周$360美元。
一年52周，每年$18720。
低工资的工作，同样没有保险。
如果是单身，保险$5000-8000
租房，5000-12000
吃，4000
车，2000
其他开支。。。
如果是有孩子，支出更高。
这样的工作，收入不足以支持开支。
美国的策略，就是这样的人，在报税的时候从国家拿钱(EIC,小孩credit).
平时拿food stamp, 有家庭和小孩的话拿sec8房子。
这样可以保证劳动力的更新换代的成本。
这样的工作，也就是说企业已经不提供劳动力更新换代的全部成本。这些成本有国家，
就是其他tax payer承担。walmart的大部分员工的工资低，从国家领$7billion的补助
。实际上其他tax payer在补助walmart 7billion，增加walmart的利润。 |
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l*****9
发帖数: 9501 | 30 http://www.opednews.com/articles/Bernie-Sanders-Introduces-by-B
General News 12/12/2013 at 13:25:01
Bernie Sanders Introduces Single Payer Bill: American Health Security Act of
2013
Summary of S. 1782, The American Health Security Act of 2013
The American Health Security Act of 2013 (S. 1782) provides every American
with affordable and comprehensive health care services through the
establishment of a national American Health Security Program (the Program)
that requires each participating state t... 阅读全帖 |
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l*****9
发帖数: 9501 | 31 The Myth of Health Care's Free Market
By David Cay Johnston / January 03 2014 1:05 PM
Ever wonder why an appendectomy costs $8,000 in one place and $29,000
elsewhere? REUTERS/Jim Bourg
Has it ever occurred to you to negotiate with the pilot of the plane you
just boarded about her pay?
Assuming the pilot was willing to take bids for her services, would you have
any idea of how to evaluate the worth of that particular pilot compared to
anyone else who might be at the controls? How long would it ... 阅读全帖 |
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l****z
发帖数: 29846 | 32 Every year thousands of Canadian have no choice but to seek medical care
outside of the country’s single-payer health care system, according a
report from a Canadian free-market think tank.
In 2013, nearly 42,000 Canucks left their homeland to avoid long wait times
and inferior care that plagues their centralized health system.
The report from the free-market Fraser Institute found that 41,838 Canadians
became “medical tourists” in 2013 and sought care outside of their hockey
-loving country. Wh... 阅读全帖 |
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h**********e
发帖数: 2973 | 33 最王八蛋的参议员就是Dick Durbin：
01. 积极支持用美国tax payer的钱来供养全世界的illegal 入境的儿童
02. 积极支持用美国tax payer的钱来供养全世界在美国的难民
03. 积极支持给全世界在美国的难民提供各种各样的旅行便利
04. 积极支持给美国的所有非法移民path to citizenship
05. 积极支持给Dreamer所有的工作和履行便利，和给予快速公民权
06. 积极反对deport influx of unaccompanied minors
07. 积极反对简化剥夺难民身份的立法
08. 积极反对deport所有的非法移民
09. 积极反对deport所有的dreamer
10. 积极反对高科技移民，提出种种措施来限制高科技移民 |
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h*h
发帖数: 27852 | 34 obamacare其实是共和党以前提出来的，obama当政时通过而已。美国已经不得不搞
single payer了，obamacrea 只是a step toward single payer |
|
a*********a
发帖数: 3656 | 35 democratic politicians give tax payer's money to the teachers union, who
then give back to democratic politicians.
all tax payers are coerced to contribute money to the democratic party this
way |
|
h*h
发帖数: 27852 | 36 美国的医疗体制是国家之耻
你看看其他西方发达国家的医疗系统，就加拿大吧。
single payer并不构成垄断，民选政府垄断个屁啊，美国的公路怎么不垄断？
single payer可以拯救病人面对医疗部门和保险公司的单方面弱势地位
私营医疗保险可以作为公费医疗的补充，但是不构成竞争
浮现 |
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V**3
发帖数: 12756 | 37 你说的这个是事实
（真正的）社会主义国家搞得当然比（不那么血腥的）资本主义国家比如美国好，美国
又比原始资本主义国家好
但问题是，是不是一个single payer就能把不那么血腥的资本主义国家变成社会主义国
家？
答案是压根没戏
最后single payer会变成另一个资本腐败的焦点 |
|
h*h
发帖数: 27852 | 38 【 以下文字转载自 Military 讨论区 】
发信人: hsh (三胡), 信区: Military
标 题: obamacare其实对我有害
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri Sep 11 15:42:46 2015, 美东)
但是我还是支持它，我觉得它是实现single payer的必要的一步。
single payer 可以大大降低管理成本，有效制止医疗部门乱开价并且降低药价和医疗
器材价格，可以实现总医疗开支减少（减少赤字），医疗coverage增加，并且提
高所有美国企业的竞争力。唯一的loser是中间人：保险公司。 |
|
T*********I
发帖数: 10729 | 39 single payer对这种有用吗？
如果没有用将来用上了single payer难道不会出像同样的问题？
感觉还是市场竞争有用。工会拿掉。或者允许多个工会存在。 |
|
s*********r
发帖数: 9493 | 40 那怎么解决这个医院和保险公司“狼狈为奸”的问题呢？
下列options, 星光觉得哪个更好？
1. 彻底“打掉”所有的商业保险公司，由政府统一管理的single-payer option？
2. 保留商业保险公司，但政府也提供保险的multi-payer option？
3. 鼓励市场竞争，打破行业壁垒，政府不介入只监控的市场化option？
或者星光有其他更好的建议？ |
|
s*********r
发帖数: 9493 | 41 那怎么解决这个医院和保险公司“狼狈为奸”的问题呢？
下列options, 星光觉得哪个更好？
1. 彻底“打掉”所有的商业保险公司，由政府统一管理的single-payer option？
2. 保留商业保险公司，但政府也提供保险的multi-payer option？
3. 鼓励市场竞争，打破行业壁垒，政府不介入只监控的市场化option？
或者星光有其他更好的建议？ |
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c***n
发帖数: 1034 | 42 Medical for All:
https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/family.png
简单说：一个年收入$50,000的家庭一年大约节省$5800在医疗保险上。
THE PLAN WOULD BE FULLY PAID FOR BY:
A 6.2 percent income-based health care premium paid by employers.
Revenue raised: $630 billion per year.
A 2.2 percent income-based premium paid by households.
Revenue raised: $210 billion per year.This year, a family of four taking the
standard deduction can have income up to $28,800 and not pay this tax under
this plan.
A family of four mak... 阅读全帖 |
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发帖数: 1 | 43 赞。有良心。
Trump说We will take care of everybody. 虽说听着有点大，但我觉得他真这么想的
。 Trump做过好多好人好事，为人仗义慷慨。他有想法做Single payer healthcare。
是Universal, 但是private plan。 Trump执行能力强，他做肯定比Obama做得好, 用更
少的钱做更多的事。
【Obama不经过竞标直接把ObamaCare网站给Michelle Obama的大学同学的公司做，做得
一塌糊涂。】
Anyway, here is a link for you to read what Trump is saying about Single
Payer System.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/28/trump-pushes |
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m**k
发帖数: 1503 | 44 很显然，医保医保，美国的问题在医，不在保，奥巴马搞了很多事情都是在保上，不敢
动医，床铺属于胆子最大的，动了医里面的药的部分，但是还是不敢动医生的部分，要
是他敢引进外国医生……
至于保险部分，其实single payer没啥不好，理论上只要国家执行力强，不需要盈利的
single payer program肯定比需要盈利的保险公司对老百姓更有利，只不过奥巴马政府
的执行力实在是悲哀才导致失败 |
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L*********4
发帖数: 883 | 45 我在美国好几个州呆过，公司医保小于一个月1000的根本不存在，你看到的150一个月
是你自负的。公司需要为你这个医保交至少一万七一年。这个数字你应该可以在你的工
资单上看到。只是这笔钱你从来没有到手过又不是从手里花出去的，不肉疼而已。对我
们这些需要给别人付这笔钱的人来说那是极为肉疼。。
所以single payer收益最大的是这些普通公司。我以前发帖分析过，普通人交的一定是
更多的。至于公司是否愿意把赚的这些钱吐给你，那可不一定。所以single payer和15
$ minimum wage结合是有他的道理的，这样就是逼迫公司把省下来的医保费用吐出来给
雇员。
？我 |
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h*h
发帖数: 27852 | 46 obamacare 不是 single payer insurance。还是原来的私立保险，没有减少任何
overhead, 增加的都是高花销保险者,当然premium 会长
single payer 才能reduce cost, 光减少的administrative cost, 都可以占现在total
healthcare spending 的20% |
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l****z
发帖数: 29846 | 47 Huge Legal Victory For The Constitution Over Obamacare (But Will Ruling Lead
To Single-Payer?)
by Jeff Dunetz | May 12, 2016 | U.S. News
In a major victory for the Constitution and for House Republicans, a federal
judge ruled that the Obama administration didn’t fund Obamacare’s
subsidies properly.
A lawsuit by house Republicans claimed that the Obama Administration was
distributing money to health insurance companies that hadn’t allocated by
congress. Today U.S. District Court Judge Rosemary Co... 阅读全帖 |
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发帖数: 1 | 48 拿小hsh为例，他的大脑里能无中生有地构造一些不存在的事实--
hillary纲领是single payer; 发达国家都是single payer.
左媒并没有直接这么说--因为太容易证伪了。
左媒是巧妙的玩语言游戏，让读者产生错觉。
润物细无声，才是洗脑最高的境界。 |
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a******e
发帖数: 5411 | 49 why the fuck do these trash people get government benefit in the first place?
they all obama's sons?!
what a waste of tax payers money
i think tax payers should vote to execute these 人渣！ |
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u**r
发帖数: 810 | 50 better than tax payers fucker who treat tax payer as a ATM bitch
totally agree. |
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