W******r
发帖数: 789 | 1 了解我的人都知道我是一个旗帜鲜明的反西医人士，但是很少人知道我以前也是西医的
追随者，甚至曾经想过以西医药为业吧？
几年前我拿到offer在一个生物实验室做博士后，负责一个和制药有点关系的项目。那
时候的我踌躇满志，一心想着做出一番名堂，然后投身医药界，为人类的健康事业作贡
献。为了实现这个理想，我还去图书馆借了一本解剖和生理学的书，补充自己的医学基
础知识。
对解剖和生理学的学习颇出我意料之外。随便翻开几页，这里not clear，那里又
unknown，基本上没有多少问题是有确切答案的。许多我以前以为是天经地义的医学常
识其实只是一个假设，不是十分可靠。这对我的世界观是一次不小的冲击。我一直信任
的现代医学原来对人体的认识竟然是如此之少，如此不可靠。
我们实验室经常会有seminar。我有一点近视，平时是不戴眼镜的，但是听seminar的时
候会把眼镜戴上。一段时间之后我发现我的视力急剧衰退。我有点担忧，害怕再这样衰
退下去我会被迫一直戴着眼镜。于是我上网寻找对策。我找到了这个网站
http://www.myopia.org/
这个网站的主人是一位受主流排挤的眼科医生，他的观点是近视的加深主要就是近视眼
镜造成的。看了这个网站我又想起了以前的一件事。有一次我去听一个lecture，需要
同时看自己桌面上的电脑和讲课人使用的大屏幕。本来我看桌面电脑是不需要戴眼镜的
，但是看大屏幕需要戴眼镜，我又懒得摘下来，于是就一直戴着了。这个lecture持续
了大概两个小时。这是我第一次长时间戴着眼镜看近。lecture结束之后我把眼镜拿下
来，猛然发现我的视力衰退得非常厉害，就连坐在我对面的人的面孔都看不清楚了。所
幸的是几天之后就慢慢地恢复了。但是如果我每天都是这样听lecture，戴着眼镜看近
，那么我的视力永远不会有恢复的机会，近视将会越来越深。这个网站的内容和我的亲
身经历一致，也和common sense一致，我倾向于相信。我决定尝试这个网站介绍的方法
，也就是雾视法（ http://www.mitbbs.com/article0/ChineseMed/12622419_0.html ）。一段时间之后我的视力果然显著提高，虽然不能完全恢复，但是听seminar已经不用戴眼镜了。这个发现首次动摇了我对主流医学的信心。近视眼镜会加深近视，一个多么简单而又明显的事实，为什么主流眼科医生至今不肯承认？他们到底是真的不明白这个道理，还是明白但是假装不知道？这样一个明显的错误他们都不知道或者不承认，其他科还有多少更隐蔽的错误呢？
在查找近视的资料的时候我无意中发现了一些链接，引申到了另外一些topic的讨论。
这些topic包括味精、精炼白糖、人工甜味剂、人工合成的维生素、洗洁精、微波炉、
手机信号、无线网络信号、转基因。其中最令我震撼的是一本叫做《百年谎言》的书（
http://discover.163.com/07/1213/10/3VJ9N6J9000125LI.html ）。我对这些topic逐一进行研究。我发现官方机构和主流媒体的说法几乎总是说这些东西安全无害，而且几乎总是和common sense相反，但是许多揭示这些东西的危害的研究却被suppressed了。我看了几篇官方的安全性研究报告，发现他们其实是在玩统计的游戏（ http://www.mitbbs.com/article0/ChineseMed/12638651_0.html ）。我开始意识到官方机构和主流媒体的许多说法是错的、误导的，对于健康的问题我们必须自己去查资料，自己去研究，自己去思考，最重要的是任何时候都不能忘记自己的common sense。
有一次seminar，讲遗传算法。我在大学的时候是专门研究遗传算法的，对这个topic特
别感兴趣，也听得特别认真。主讲人要优化的是一个二元函数，自变量分别是x和y。他
使用的交叉算子竟然是把x和y的二进制编码的某一段互相交换。To me this is
ridiculous。x和y是两个不同的dimension，一个dimension的二进制编码怎么可能提供
另一个dimension的优化信息？这种操作其实只是起到了一个随机扰动的作用。当时另
外一个学数学的同事马上就指出了这一点。主讲人也说不出个所以然，只是简单地说这
是在模仿生物的进化。显然他并没有真正明白遗传算法的原理，他只是机械化地使用了
这个算法。又有一次，我在看一篇论文。我发现了一件比较搞笑的事。这篇论文的作者
对数据进行了一系列的操作，其中有两个操作是完全相反的，后一个操作刚好抵消了前
一个操作的effect。换句话说，这两个操作是多余的，如果把这两个操作都去掉，将会
得到一模一样的结果。可是作者和审稿人没有一个看得出来。当然这不能算是一个错误
，但也说明了这篇论文的作者并没有从本质上理解这些操作的原理，以至于使用了两个
恰好相反、互相抵消的操作而连他自己都不知道。我猜测他当时只是机械化地尝试不同
的组合，这个组合刚好能给出他想要的结果，所以他就用了这个组合。我开始明白为什
么我在前面提到的那些错误的观念能够占领主流媒体甚至能够占领学术界了。从事科学
研究的人当中只有少数人真正具有独立思考的能力，大部分人只是一步一步地follow别
人预先设计好的步骤而不问究竟。提供研究经费的agent首先指明了一个大方向，定下
了一个基调，created a biased atmosphere，大部分科研人员会盲目地follow，毕竟
那是他们提供的经费。只有少数真正懂得思考的人会质疑。
这个时候我的一个好友开始向我灌输中医的观念。在和他的交谈中我知道了倪海厦这个
人。倪海厦当时是在佛罗里达州执业的一位中医师，是一个旗帜鲜明的反西医人士，对
西医深恶痛绝。他认为西医杀人多于救人，认为西医只应该用于外伤和重症急救。当然
，我是一个学者，一个科研人员，我不会盲目相信一个中医师说的话。于是我又上网找
资料，自己做研究。
这次研究彻彻底底地颠覆了我的世界观。我找到了这个网站
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/current.aspx
这个网站的主人叫做Dr. Mercola，是一位西医师，受过正规的西医教育和训练，后来
却转向了天然疗法的阵营。想必他也经历了和我相似的心路历程吧。当然，他是一个专
业的医生，对西医本质的认识要比我深刻得多。Dr. Mercola认为西医药被过度滥用和
误用，对人体健康的破坏要远远大于它要对付的疾病本身。他的文章都有事实作为依据
，而且列出了资料来源，可信度非常高。更重要的是，他的观点和我这几年学到的专业
知识和做研究的经历一致，也和common sense一致。我很快就接受了他的观点。
通过这次研究学习，我明白了两个非常重要的道理。1，主流西医是对抗疗法，许多时
候西医要消灭的并不是疾病本身，而是人体对疾病的抗击。例如人在感冒的时候会发烧
、咳嗽、流鼻涕、打喷嚏，这些症状其实是人体对病毒作出的抗击，而恰恰也是西药感
冒药千方百计想要消灭的东西。又例如高血压，人体有着复杂的调节机制，人体把血压
升高可能是身体某个地方出了问题而采取的一种保护机制。西医并不明白这种机制，也
不知道高血压的根本原因，却粗暴地用化学药品硬把血压降下来，这样会带来不可预知
的后果。2，在微观层次人体的复杂程度远远超过了现代医学所能把握的范围。西医的
理论是建立在一些非常粗略的模型和极不可靠的假设之上。但是西医使用的是invasive
, aggressive, powerful的方法。假设和现实之间的任何一个微小差异都有可能造成巨
大的灾难。RSV疫苗就是一个典型的例子（ http://www.mitbbs.com/article0/ChineseMed/12635997_0.html ）。
生物技术和现代医学有一种莫名其妙的自信和狂妄自大。生物技术觉得自己可以主宰和
支配生命的规律，把基因转来转去，一点儿也不担心一旦出了差错就会受到大自然的残
酷惩罚。现代医学则把病人当成机器一样来修理，把病人折磨得死去活来。我刚进实验
室的时候也是同样地充满信心。几年之后，经过了一系列的学习、研究、思考和亲身经
历，我的世界观
发生了天翻地覆的改变，几乎是180度的转变。我明白了在大自然和生命面前现代科学
是多么的肤浅。我学会了敬畏生命，敬畏自然。在生物实验室做研究的这几年是我的世
界观转变最大的几年。这几年将会是我毕生难忘的经历。 |
X*******g
发帖数: 489 | 2 写得不错啊，赞一个!
中医是个奇妙的黑洞，她只选择性地吸收有慧根的人。正应了那句话，佛渡有缘人啊!
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 W******r 的大作中提到】
: 了解我的人都知道我是一个旗帜鲜明的反西医人士，但是很少人知道我以前也是西医的
: 追随者，甚至曾经想过以西医药为业吧？
: 几年前我拿到offer在一个生物实验室做博士后，负责一个和制药有点关系的项目。那
: 时候的我踌躇满志，一心想着做出一番名堂，然后投身医药界，为人类的健康事业作贡
: 献。为了实现这个理想，我还去图书馆借了一本解剖和生理学的书，补充自己的医学基
: 础知识。
: 对解剖和生理学的学习颇出我意料之外。随便翻开几页，这里not clear，那里又
: unknown，基本上没有多少问题是有确切答案的。许多我以前以为是天经地义的医学常
: 识其实只是一个假设，不是十分可靠。这对我的世界观是一次不小的冲击。我一直信任
: 的现代医学原来对人体的认识竟然是如此之少，如此不可靠。
|
b*********s
发帖数: 1074 | |
f*******e
发帖数: 5594 | 4 赞！现代人离自然太远了。
【在 W******r 的大作中提到】
: 了解我的人都知道我是一个旗帜鲜明的反西医人士，但是很少人知道我以前也是西医的
: 追随者，甚至曾经想过以西医药为业吧？
: 几年前我拿到offer在一个生物实验室做博士后，负责一个和制药有点关系的项目。那
: 时候的我踌躇满志，一心想着做出一番名堂，然后投身医药界，为人类的健康事业作贡
: 献。为了实现这个理想，我还去图书馆借了一本解剖和生理学的书，补充自己的医学基
: 础知识。
: 对解剖和生理学的学习颇出我意料之外。随便翻开几页，这里not clear，那里又
: unknown，基本上没有多少问题是有确切答案的。许多我以前以为是天经地义的医学常
: 识其实只是一个假设，不是十分可靠。这对我的世界观是一次不小的冲击。我一直信任
: 的现代医学原来对人体的认识竟然是如此之少，如此不可靠。
|
f*******e
发帖数: 5594 | 5 是否相信中医与人的思维方式关系很大，确实是缘分。
【在 X*******g 的大作中提到】
: 写得不错啊，赞一个!
: 中医是个奇妙的黑洞，她只选择性地吸收有慧根的人。正应了那句话，佛渡有缘人啊!
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
|
H*********s
发帖数: 2724 | 6 支持!
"认为西医只应该用于外伤和重症急救。"
中医和自然治疗法更为养生. 现在很多西医也开THERAPY的方子. |
b****e
发帖数: 906 | |
j******f
发帖数: 228 | 8 I disagree. Especially this part:
生物技术和现代医学有一种莫名其妙的自信和狂妄自大。生物技术觉得自己可以主宰和
支配生命的规律，把基因转来转去，一点儿也不担心一旦出了差错就会受到大自然的残
酷惩罚。现代医学则把病人当成机器一样来修理，把病人折磨得死去活来。
No biologist/scientist feels "自己可以主宰和
支配生命的规律". You are establishing a strawman and fight it.
Manipulations of genes are done in the laboratories. It is a long way before
a medicine is made out of these experiments and there are strict
regulations on this. No one is "把病人当成机器一样来修理". I think this more
applies to chinese medicine.
Sure we are not able to understand everything about human body (and we
probably will never be). That's why we need to push forward the research
instead of giving up. And why you think Chinese medicines are the answer to
these unknowns? |
W******r
发帖数: 789 | 9 最近有点忙。只回答你的最后一个问题。
I don't think Chinese medicines are the answers to these unknowns either.
But the amazing thing about Chinese medicines is that they work with the
unknowns, because they are in harmony with the nature. Do you need to know
the cell structure of a seed in order to grow a tree? Sure modern medical
science knows a lot more microscopic details about life, however, the more
it knows, the more it goes against the nature.
probably will never be). That's why we need to push forward the research
instead of giving up. And why you think Chinese medicines are the answer to
these unknowns?
【在 j******f 的大作中提到】
: I disagree. Especially this part:
: 生物技术和现代医学有一种莫名其妙的自信和狂妄自大。生物技术觉得自己可以主宰和
: 支配生命的规律，把基因转来转去，一点儿也不担心一旦出了差错就会受到大自然的残
: 酷惩罚。现代医学则把病人当成机器一样来修理，把病人折磨得死去活来。
: No biologist/scientist feels "自己可以主宰和
: 支配生命的规律". You are establishing a strawman and fight it.
: Manipulations of genes are done in the laboratories. It is a long way before
: a medicine is made out of these experiments and there are strict
: regulations on this. No one is "把病人当成机器一样来修理". I think this more
: applies to chinese medicine.
|
X*******g
发帖数: 489 | 10 现在的西方医学过于简单粗暴了。看哪儿不对劲，就一刀下去。过两天又不对劲了，就
再来一刀。
西药也是，非要装清纯，就一个分子，100%纯净，就嚷着这儿也治，那儿也治。没有好
?统计一把，哦，对不起，你是那30%。人命千金，谁愿做那30%? 要不就罗列十几页的
副作用，从咳嗽到心肌梗死，吃了有事别找我。
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 j******f 的大作中提到】
: I disagree. Especially this part:
: 生物技术和现代医学有一种莫名其妙的自信和狂妄自大。生物技术觉得自己可以主宰和
: 支配生命的规律，把基因转来转去，一点儿也不担心一旦出了差错就会受到大自然的残
: 酷惩罚。现代医学则把病人当成机器一样来修理，把病人折磨得死去活来。
: No biologist/scientist feels "自己可以主宰和
: 支配生命的规律". You are establishing a strawman and fight it.
: Manipulations of genes are done in the laboratories. It is a long way before
: a medicine is made out of these experiments and there are strict
: regulations on this. No one is "把病人当成机器一样来修理". I think this more
: applies to chinese medicine.
|
|
|
h*********0
发帖数: 109 | 11 You are right in some degree about western medicine, but general Chinese
medicine may be even worse in a lot of parts. that's the reason Chinese
medicine has difficulty to compete with western medicine. Western medicine
is always trying to absorb some parts of Chinese medicine to enhance itself.
but Chinese medicine has not used much of western medicine to promote
itself. this is the problem of Chinese medicine. Western medicine always
thinks the future is better but the best Chinese medicine was in the past.
We need to find a way to use western medicine to promote our Chinese
medicine. |
h*********0
发帖数: 109 | 12 You are right in some degree about western medicine, but general Chinese
medicine may be even worse in a lot of parts. that's the reason Chinese
medicine has difficulty to compete with western medicine. Western medicine
is always trying to absorb some parts of Chinese medicine to enhance itself.
but Chinese medicine has not used much of western medicine to promote
itself. this is the problem of Chinese medicine. Western medicine always
thinks the future is better but the best Chinese medicine was in the past.
We need to find a way to use western medicine to promote our Chinese
medicine. |
j******f
发帖数: 228 | 13 "But the amazing thing about Chinese medicines is that they work with the
unknowns, because they are in harmony with the nature."
This is a big logical leap forward. First, there are many examples of the
toxic effects of chinese medicine. So it doesn't just "works". Modern
science has shown that many deceases are self-healing, which means without
taking medicine patients can recover themselves. So even if someone takes
some chinese medicine and looks like he is cured, how do you prove it is
becoz of the chinese medicine?
Also how do you define "in harmony with nature"? Are all chinese medicines "
in harmony with nature"? Why western medicines are not "in harmony"? |
j******f
发帖数: 228 | 14 现在的西方医学过于简单粗暴了。看哪儿不对劲，就一刀下去。过两天又不对劲了，就
再来一刀。
Does this apply to 华佗的开颅术? |
X*******g
发帖数: 489 | 15 个人观点，华佗并非中医主流。他无一书流传。对他麻醉术和开颅术的吹捧，只是某些
人想在西医前寻求的一丝心理安慰。
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 j******f 的大作中提到】
: 现在的西方医学过于简单粗暴了。看哪儿不对劲，就一刀下去。过两天又不对劲了，就
: 再来一刀。
: Does this apply to 华佗的开颅术?
|
l******r
发帖数: 3472 | 16 说的好。说到底，西医治果（标），不治因（本）。
我这次有幸在最有名的上海瑞金医院（肿瘤医院），亲身感受到西医怎样治病。
化疗前，蛋白质低，补蛋白；血小板低，补血小板；。。。再输点养胃的药，贴上止痛
片，开始化疗，不大便了，喝什么东西，每餐饭后喝，喝完大便出来。整个一个你缺啥
，我给你啥。杀病毒同时，里面的五脏功能都乱了，人都不能自己转了。 完了后，自
己考虑吧。能扛过去，体质能恢复，可能就好了，抗不过去，免疫力太差了，病毒自然
又来找你了。 |
W******r
发帖数: 789 | 17 支持这个。为什么老是有人把小说的情节当真？
【在 X*******g 的大作中提到】
: 个人观点，华佗并非中医主流。他无一书流传。对他麻醉术和开颅术的吹捧，只是某些
: 人想在西医前寻求的一丝心理安慰。
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
|
W******r
发帖数: 789 | 18 Here we are back to the fundamental question which has been debated over and
over again. In the real world there is always uncertainty. You can never
prove anything. In my opinion, it's part of personal experience, part of
philosophy, part of faith, and part of common sense. And TCM does not always
work. It still has a risk/reward trade-off, which is universal and
unavoidable.
Modern medical science is low level. TCM is high level. When you write a
computer program with a low level programming language such as the assembly
language, you work with the hardware and registers directly. You make a
mistake and you are going to crash the whole system. When you write the
program with a high level language such as any scripting language, you work
with a abstract logic which has nothing to do with the hardware. A
programmer who has spent his whole life working with hardware and assembly
language won't be able to understand this abstract logic, for it requires a
different way of thinking. To him, the program written in a scripting
language is absurd, for it uses totally different vocabulary which the
hardware won't be able to recognize. Today we all know that the program
written in a scripting language will eventually be executed on the hardware,
with the help of an interpreter or a compiler, but we don't need to know
the details. We still will make mistakes, but the effect is usually not that
dramatic and is unlikely to crash the system.
"
【在 j******f 的大作中提到】
: "But the amazing thing about Chinese medicines is that they work with the
: unknowns, because they are in harmony with the nature."
: This is a big logical leap forward. First, there are many examples of the
: toxic effects of chinese medicine. So it doesn't just "works". Modern
: science has shown that many deceases are self-healing, which means without
: taking medicine patients can recover themselves. So even if someone takes
: some chinese medicine and looks like he is cured, how do you prove it is
: becoz of the chinese medicine?
: Also how do you define "in harmony with nature"? Are all chinese medicines "
: in harmony with nature"? Why western medicines are not "in harmony"?
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X*******g
发帖数: 489 | 19 不会是以患者身份吧?；）
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 l******r 的大作中提到】
: 说的好。说到底，西医治果（标），不治因（本）。
: 我这次有幸在最有名的上海瑞金医院（肿瘤医院），亲身感受到西医怎样治病。
: 化疗前，蛋白质低，补蛋白；血小板低，补血小板；。。。再输点养胃的药，贴上止痛
: 片，开始化疗，不大便了，喝什么东西，每餐饭后喝，喝完大便出来。整个一个你缺啥
: ，我给你啥。杀病毒同时，里面的五脏功能都乱了，人都不能自己转了。 完了后，自
: 己考虑吧。能扛过去，体质能恢复，可能就好了，抗不过去，免疫力太差了，病毒自然
: 又来找你了。
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c**c
发帖数: 356 | 20 华佗吗，我觉得还是中医外科的鼻祖，只不过，他的东西都失传了，所以中医外科就比
西医外科落后了太多。
中医内科嘛，比西医内科多了好几千年的临床人体实验，而且整个着眼点就不一样（整
体vs局部），所以，我认为西医再过几千年的最终结果是，奥，原来中医的东西是对的
，只不过我们原来不懂。
【在 X*******g 的大作中提到】
: 个人观点，华佗并非中医主流。他无一书流传。对他麻醉术和开颅术的吹捧，只是某些
: 人想在西医前寻求的一丝心理安慰。
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
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j******f
发帖数: 228 | 21 "我认为西医再过几千年的最终结果是，奥，原来中医的东西是对的
，只不过我们原来不懂"
This is very arrogant and wishful thinking. I don't think it will ever
happen. Scientists will keep pushing the envelop and improving understanding
of the human body. With human genomes, we already have the blue-print, it
is a matter of time (although maybe very long) to crack more secrets from it
. Yes, the complexity of the problem is beyond imagination. However, I'm
pretty sure the solution wouldn't come from the principles came up by people
lived thousands of years ago, who had very limited knowledge of nature and
human. Although they might get something right, surely not everything. :) |
j******f
发帖数: 228 | 22 I don't quite agree with the analogy. Both assembly language and higher
level languages are based on the Von-neumann model of the computer. They are
fundamentally same "animals".
Chinese medicine and science share very few common ground if any. Science is
based on observation, evidence, and logic. Therefore, all the theories are
backed up by rigorous evidences (they could still be wrong). It is always
encouraged to challenge existing theories, which makes science advance all
the time. On the contrary, Chinese medicine is based on a philosophy that
does not care about evidence and logic. Thus, its conclusions are very shaky
. Also challenging authorities are generally not encouraged, which makes it
very difficult to improve itself.
and
always
assembly
【在 W******r 的大作中提到】
: Here we are back to the fundamental question which has been debated over and
: over again. In the real world there is always uncertainty. You can never
: prove anything. In my opinion, it's part of personal experience, part of
: philosophy, part of faith, and part of common sense. And TCM does not always
: work. It still has a risk/reward trade-off, which is universal and
: unavoidable.
: Modern medical science is low level. TCM is high level. When you write a
: computer program with a low level programming language such as the assembly
: language, you work with the hardware and registers directly. You make a
: mistake and you are going to crash the whole system. When you write the
|
f*******e
发帖数: 5594 | 23 “Chinese medicine is based on a philosophy that does not care about evidenc
e and logic.”
呵呵，在你的想象中，中医都是神仙啊！
are
is
are
shaky
it
【在 j******f 的大作中提到】
: I don't quite agree with the analogy. Both assembly language and higher
: level languages are based on the Von-neumann model of the computer. They are
: fundamentally same "animals".
: Chinese medicine and science share very few common ground if any. Science is
: based on observation, evidence, and logic. Therefore, all the theories are
: backed up by rigorous evidences (they could still be wrong). It is always
: encouraged to challenge existing theories, which makes science advance all
: the time. On the contrary, Chinese medicine is based on a philosophy that
: does not care about evidence and logic. Thus, its conclusions are very shaky
: . Also challenging authorities are generally not encouraged, which makes it
|
A*********l
发帖数: 2005 | 24 人家是觉得中医都是半仙。
evidenc
【在 f*******e 的大作中提到】
: “Chinese medicine is based on a philosophy that does not care about evidenc
: e and logic.”
: 呵呵，在你的想象中，中医都是神仙啊！
:
: are
: is
: are
: shaky
: it
|
