h****g
发帖数: 2216 | | a*****g
发帖数: 19398 | 2 美国人也觉醒了
【在 h****g 的大作中提到】
: http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/15/us/scotus-affirmative-action/inde
: Michigan的AA ban刚刚在最高法院过堂。从现在情况看，Michigan的禁止AA的法律应该
: 会成功。
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 3 In University of Michigan, the 2008 group was the first whole class to be
admitted since the passage of Proposal 2, a ballot initiative that banned
the use of race- and gender-based preferences in admissions in 2006. The ban
was implemented in 2007 in the middle of the University's admission cycle,
lessening the ban's possible impact that year.
The percentage of black students enrolled in 2008's freshman class increased
to 6.4 percent, a one percentage point increase from 2007 and the highest
level since 2005.
Drops were seen with other minority groups, though. About 70 fewer Hispanic
students enrolled the fall of 2008, lowering the group's enrollment
percentage about a point to 3.4 percent. Both Native Americans and Asian
Americans were enrolled at a lower rate this year, but each saw a decrease
of less than one percentage point.
The proportion of white students increased by 4 percentage points, to 67
percent. | B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 4 Since the passage of California's Proposition 209 in November 1996, Asian
Americans have not made significant gains in University of California
admissions, as the initiative's advocates had predicted. Instead, it is
increasingly apparent that in using the myth of Asian Americans as a "model
minority" to support their claim that ending affirmative action would
transcend white self-interests, conservative activists misled the voting
public. How long will this continue?
-- Andrew Chin | L******w
发帖数: 5407 | 5 为什么黑人还增加了？
ban
,
increased
Hispanic
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: In University of Michigan, the 2008 group was the first whole class to be
: admitted since the passage of Proposal 2, a ballot initiative that banned
: the use of race- and gender-based preferences in admissions in 2006. The ban
: was implemented in 2007 in the middle of the University's admission cycle,
: lessening the ban's possible impact that year.
: The percentage of black students enrolled in 2008's freshman class increased
: to 6.4 percent, a one percentage point increase from 2007 and the highest
: level since 2005.
: Drops were seen with other minority groups, though. About 70 fewer Hispanic
: students enrolled the fall of 2008, lowering the group's enrollment
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 6 Racial Mascotting
The Real and Imagined Impact of Proposition 209 and SP-1 at University of
California Law Schools
By William C. Kidder
APA: Asian Pacific American
Kidder reports that after affirmative action, Asian Americans went from 17.4
% to 18.3% of UC Law School enrollments, a small increase that trailed
national trends. In contrast, Kidder notes, white enrollments at UC Law
Schools jumped from 59.8% of the class to 71.7% after Prop. 209.
Tables 1 and 2 compare the number of enrolled first-year APAs in the last
three years before Prop. 209/SP-1, and the first three years after Prop. 209
/SP-1. Each figure in parenthesis is the percentage of each class comprised
of APAs. These percentages are helpful in assessing APAs' relative
representation, since it is difficult for law schools to calibrate their
offers so as to enroll an identical number of students each year. [10]
Overall, data from three UC Law Schools indicates that there were 405 total
APAs enrolled in the three years after Prop. 209 and SP-1, compared with 374
total APAs in the three years prior to Prop. 209 and SP-1. When one
controls for APAs' representation as a proportion of the total number of
first- year seats, APAs constituted 18.3% of UC Law School classes in 1997-
99, compared to 17.4% for 1994-96. Indeed, the very modest gains that APAs
made at UC Law Schools might merely reflect, at least in part, continuing
application trends in California that would have occurred with or without
the ban on affirmative action. [14] Thus, overall, the ban on affirmative
action has resulted in negligible gains for APA law students at UC Law
Schools. While this data is certainly not evidence of a return to "
Fitzgerald's Princeton," neither does it come close to justifying Thernstrom
's assertion that when race-conscious affirmative action is eliminated, APAs
reap the greatest benefit. | B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 7 IDK.
It would be interesting to list the demographics of admitted students in UM
and MSU before and after the ban. Pay attention to the rise and fall of each
ethnic group.
【在 L******w 的大作中提到】
: 为什么黑人还增加了？
:
: ban
: ,
: increased
: Hispanic
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 8 Coincidentally or not, the percentage of out-of-state students in UM
increased dramatically since the ban. In 2012, out-of-state and
international students now comprise 42.6 percent of the freshman class at UM
, outpacing non-resident enrollment levels of recent history. This could
partially be explained by the greed for money on the mind of the UM
administrators (UM is a state-funded university!) Removing the race-related
admission criteria would theoretically lead to the shunning of poor, low-
income, in-state applicants, and welcoming smiles to the riches from all
over the world.
MSU students always taunt the UM students as the "stupid rich kids." You get
the picture. | L******w
发帖数: 5407 | 9 越看越糊涂。
UM
each
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: IDK.
: It would be interesting to list the demographics of admitted students in UM
: and MSU before and after the ban. Pay attention to the rise and fall of each
: ethnic group.
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 10 Here are the data for MSU (undergraduate, graduate, and professional). Did
Asian Pacific American gain ground after the ban? You decide.
The biggest increase for undergraduates: International Students. In other
words: $$
So MSU is doing similar things as UM, thanks to the ban. | | | m**n
发帖数: 9010 | 11 你还是给总结一下吧:
1. 这个Michigan的proposal 2是否直接针对AA?
2. proposal 2实行之后(实行了么?), 亚裔有没有明显受益?
3. 其他族群受了什么影响?
UM
related
get
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Coincidentally or not, the percentage of out-of-state students in UM
: increased dramatically since the ban. In 2012, out-of-state and
: international students now comprise 42.6 percent of the freshman class at UM
: , outpacing non-resident enrollment levels of recent history. This could
: partially be explained by the greed for money on the mind of the UM
: administrators (UM is a state-funded university!) Removing the race-related
: admission criteria would theoretically lead to the shunning of poor, low-
: income, in-state applicants, and welcoming smiles to the riches from all
: over the world.
: MSU students always taunt the UM students as the "stupid rich kids." You get
| S***e
发帖数: 4426 | 12 i guess you should say thanks to the economy...
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Here are the data for MSU (undergraduate, graduate, and professional). Did
: Asian Pacific American gain ground after the ban? You decide.
: The biggest increase for undergraduates: International Students. In other
: words: $$
: So MSU is doing similar things as UM, thanks to the ban.
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 13 Regarding African American enrollment in colleges overall when comparing
2008 with 20112 . . . | a***s
发帖数: 5417 | 14 这些data都是biased. 事实上，由于多年洗脑，aa已经深入人心深处，
即使在没有aa或者废除了aa的地方，人们就是用aa的做法去录取或者评奖。
我们单位每年holleween有扮装表演，有些人真是很精心的装扮。但是
每次打架投票第一名都是黑人。其实黑人的扮装算不上好也算不上精心。
只不过好像大家心里都有要优惠/鼓励黑人的想法。
加州大学系统没有aa, 可是每年招生委员会开会的一个重大议题就是
要扩大少数民族（黑，西）招生。每年名单定了以后，要检查是否比
上一年录取了更多的黑西学生。
AA实行多年的洗脑效果是巨大而深远的。以后即使废除AA, 也如同
没有废除。要扭转人们已经形成的AA的思维， 可能得等美国没落，
失去国际竞争力，债务高筑，无法维系，最后不得不革命的时候。
【在 m**n 的大作中提到】
: 你还是给总结一下吧:
: 1. 这个Michigan的proposal 2是否直接针对AA?
: 2. proposal 2实行之后(实行了么?), 亚裔有没有明显受益?
: 3. 其他族群受了什么影响?
:
: UM
: related
: get
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 15 In fact, the data about APA (other than the final admitted number) during
the application process are quite scarce. Someone should contact the top 100
universities and top 50 liberal arts colleges, and ask for admission data (
APA applicants number, accepted number, acceptance rate, yield, and final
percentage in the freshman class), similar to the Journal for Blacks in
Higher Education. then compare the data against those of Whites, Blacks,
Hispanics, etc.
Then prepare a combined data sheet for each year and publish online or in
paper . . .
If Mr. Unz can write an article after a fifteen-minutes-glance of a data
sheet, a more serious writer definitely can write a much better piece with
sheets of real, hard data. | m**n
发帖数: 9010 | 16 关于我问的那几个问题, 如果有人给出数据, 我看不出哪里有
"biased"?
数据就是数据, 除非取数据的方法有问题, 否则数据本身不存在什么
明显的biase.
对数据的解释, 是出现biase的主要过程.
比如, 就我那两个问题, 假如数据说明实行proposal 2之后亚裔
录取率暂时没有明显改善, 那么数据就说明
"实行proposal 2之后亚裔录取率暂时没有明显改善"这个简单事实.
至于是什么原因导致了这个事实, 当然可以讨论.
【在 a***s 的大作中提到】
: 这些data都是biased. 事实上，由于多年洗脑，aa已经深入人心深处，
: 即使在没有aa或者废除了aa的地方，人们就是用aa的做法去录取或者评奖。
: 我们单位每年holleween有扮装表演，有些人真是很精心的装扮。但是
: 每次打架投票第一名都是黑人。其实黑人的扮装算不上好也算不上精心。
: 只不过好像大家心里都有要优惠/鼓励黑人的想法。
: 加州大学系统没有aa, 可是每年招生委员会开会的一个重大议题就是
: 要扩大少数民族（黑，西）招生。每年名单定了以后，要检查是否比
: 上一年录取了更多的黑西学生。
: AA实行多年的洗脑效果是巨大而深远的。以后即使废除AA, 也如同
: 没有废除。要扭转人们已经形成的AA的思维， 可能得等美国没落，
| S***e
发帖数: 4426 | 17 什么叫洗脑啊？我觉得认为学习成绩优秀就应该上牛校才是被多年洗脑后的思想呢。
大家就在美国生活，难道你们真觉得黑人在这个社会是占便宜的？不aa，那些身强力壮
的黑人上不了学，前途没有任何希望，你让人家干嘛？美国还可以拥抢，你就不怕人家
造反啊。。。aa啊，各种福利啊，说白了就是美国式的维稳。我并不觉得aa是什么好东
西，aa其实是个遮羞布，遮着美国社会种族不平等，种族矛盾的羞。但是有块遮羞布总
比没有强。我真心希望以后不需要这块遮羞布了，但要等到真正种族平等的那一天。
【在 a***s 的大作中提到】
: 这些data都是biased. 事实上，由于多年洗脑，aa已经深入人心深处，
: 即使在没有aa或者废除了aa的地方，人们就是用aa的做法去录取或者评奖。
: 我们单位每年holleween有扮装表演，有些人真是很精心的装扮。但是
: 每次打架投票第一名都是黑人。其实黑人的扮装算不上好也算不上精心。
: 只不过好像大家心里都有要优惠/鼓励黑人的想法。
: 加州大学系统没有aa, 可是每年招生委员会开会的一个重大议题就是
: 要扩大少数民族（黑，西）招生。每年名单定了以后，要检查是否比
: 上一年录取了更多的黑西学生。
: AA实行多年的洗脑效果是巨大而深远的。以后即使废除AA, 也如同
: 没有废除。要扭转人们已经形成的AA的思维， 可能得等美国没落，
| h****g
发帖数: 2216 | 18 看来你被老江湖给忽悠了。只要选择性的使用数据，什么结果都可以显示。但是如果你
通过选择性使用数据的方法来误导读者，那就是"biased"。我不想对那个只愿意发英文
的id做什么诛心之论，也没有兴趣去挖掘他以前那些自恨的帖子。
我只说他这次使用数据的方法，你就可以管中窥豹，可见一斑了。
比如在high ranked univ 中，他故意忽略了 California Institute of Technology。
作为一个长期在排名top 10的学校，为什么单单没有列出那个学校的数据呢？你有兴
趣得话自己查一下相关数据就可以看出名堂了。
美国人民最喜欢用“数字”说话，但是用哪部分的“数字”，那可是奥妙无穷 :-)
【在 m**n 的大作中提到】
: 关于我问的那几个问题, 如果有人给出数据, 我看不出哪里有
: "biased"?
: 数据就是数据, 除非取数据的方法有问题, 否则数据本身不存在什么
: 明显的biase.
: 对数据的解释, 是出现biase的主要过程.
: 比如, 就我那两个问题, 假如数据说明实行proposal 2之后亚裔
: 录取率暂时没有明显改善, 那么数据就说明
: "实行proposal 2之后亚裔录取率暂时没有明显改善"这个简单事实.
: 至于是什么原因导致了这个事实, 当然可以讨论.
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 19 LZ, I worried about your reading comprehension.
Those tables list the colleges according to their percentage of African
Americans (Those with the bigger number go first.) In that category, Caltech
is dismal and probably near the end of the top 100 research universities.
Unless one list all 100 universities, Caltech is not going to make the list.
In other words, Caltech "hid" itself! If Caltech had had more than 3.7%
African American in its freshman class, it would have beaten U.C. Berkeley
and made the list (by removing U.C. Berkeley therefrom.)
Again data do not lie. But Mr. Unz loves to give biased explanation and
using biased methods to collect data points.
Finally, all the graphs I provided are in the public domain, collected by
authentic authors. If some activist would like to collect annual data for
the corresponding Asian American admission data from the top 100 research/
liberal arts colleges, it would have been better. Unfortunately, I am not
aware of such effort, thus, unable to provide a similar comparison.
Talking about bias, here is one advice: before criticizing others, make sure
that you understand the issues and DATA involved, and that you use correct
reasoning techniques. Take off the anti-AA tunnel-vision glasses from your
head and be open-minded when reading posts and analyzing data. | h****g
发帖数: 2216 | 20 我很好，真不需要你worry啥。你数据背后的故事accos的回帖已经讲得很清楚了。
但是它缺少一个数据支撑，就是一个“全心全意”不搞AA的学校(和“半心半意”的加
州大学的那几个分校比一下就能看出来)。这个学校就是加州理工。你当然可以设定个
理由来hide你想hide的数据。我只是把这个数据摆出来而已。能来美国读书的多半都不
傻。看到我的列的加州理工和accos的回帖大概都知道是怎么回事了。
至于说服你，我还真没有这个打算，当然也不会worry about you.
Caltech
list.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: LZ, I worried about your reading comprehension.
: Those tables list the colleges according to their percentage of African
: Americans (Those with the bigger number go first.) In that category, Caltech
: is dismal and probably near the end of the top 100 research universities.
: Unless one list all 100 universities, Caltech is not going to make the list.
: In other words, Caltech "hid" itself! If Caltech had had more than 3.7%
: African American in its freshman class, it would have beaten U.C. Berkeley
: and made the list (by removing U.C. Berkeley therefrom.)
: Again data do not lie. But Mr. Unz loves to give biased explanation and
: using biased methods to collect data points.
| | | B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 21 Your reply shows that either you have little comprehension of data or that
you refuse to admit your own mistake.
Again, I did not hide Caltech (or I should say that the original author for
the table did not do the same), but Caltech hid itself from being listed in
that table. If you blame that fact on a "biased" author, it is really your
own problem.
【在 h****g 的大作中提到】
: 我很好，真不需要你worry啥。你数据背后的故事accos的回帖已经讲得很清楚了。
: 但是它缺少一个数据支撑，就是一个“全心全意”不搞AA的学校(和“半心半意”的加
: 州大学的那几个分校比一下就能看出来)。这个学校就是加州理工。你当然可以设定个
: 理由来hide你想hide的数据。我只是把这个数据摆出来而已。能来美国读书的多半都不
: 傻。看到我的列的加州理工和accos的回帖大概都知道是怎么回事了。
: 至于说服你，我还真没有这个打算，当然也不会worry about you.
:
: Caltech
: list.
| h****g
发帖数: 2216 | 22 鉴于你到现在还没有看明白，我把话说得更明白点。我的几个帖子，不仅仅是blame你
列的数据，更是直接blame你。考虑到你一直以来的路数，我建议任何头脑清醒的网友
直接忽略你的发言。
Hope it is clear enough for you!
for
in
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Your reply shows that either you have little comprehension of data or that
: you refuse to admit your own mistake.
: Again, I did not hide Caltech (or I should say that the original author for
: the table did not do the same), but Caltech hid itself from being listed in
: that table. If you blame that fact on a "biased" author, it is really your
: own problem.
| B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 23 Unfortunately, just by replying to my posts, you might have alienated
readers who would not tolerate "biased" opinions. It is laughable that
someone against AA would insist that Caltech to be on the list of colleges
which admit A LOT of African Americans in their freshman class. That is a
classical case of Oxymoron, if not mission impossible.
Second, since your blame on the data was wrong, you blame on my posts is
also wrong. Double wrong's cannot make you right. It is just common sense.
【在 h****g 的大作中提到】
: 鉴于你到现在还没有看明白，我把话说得更明白点。我的几个帖子，不仅仅是blame你
: 列的数据，更是直接blame你。考虑到你一直以来的路数，我建议任何头脑清醒的网友
: 直接忽略你的发言。
: Hope it is clear enough for you!
:
: for
: in
|
|
