p****0
发帖数: 611 | 1 2/5 live, full table. Hero had stack of 600ish. Villain just sit down for
couple hands. Villain bluffed once and failed. This hand hero had 55 at UTG
. Limed in. LP raised to 15, 4 caller including villain at MP, BTN, BB and
hero.
Flop 622r, hero led out 45, MP called. Turn 7, hero check, MP led out 100,
hero?
Hero called the turn in fact. Should hero call, fold or raise at turn?
River 8, hero check, MP led out 175, hero?
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8 | d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 2 只要不是习惯性的拿着55在这样的spot抓bluff，这手牌怎么打都不算错太离谱。
当然，换了我的话，我会fold turn。 | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 3 flop bet is kind of donation without position and a medium hand and no draw
and relatively deep.
with quite a few guys behind, they could easily float or slow play you with
anything, wild wide range.
you should foresee the turn/river double check coming before your flop bet.
as played, i'd fold turn and fold here on the river against a new player.
true that he bluffed once, but it doesn't mean he bluffs every time. a
tricky player could play hands like 99+ here. he doesn't pop you on the flop
, but it doesn't mean he has only air.
UTG
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: 2/5 live, full table. Hero had stack of 600ish. Villain just sit down for
: couple hands. Villain bluffed once and failed. This hand hero had 55 at UTG
: . Limed in. LP raised to 15, 4 caller including villain at MP, BTN, BB and
: hero.
: Flop 622r, hero led out 45, MP called. Turn 7, hero check, MP led out 100,
: hero?
: Hero called the turn in fact. Should hero call, fold or raise at turn?
: River 8, hero check, MP led out 175, hero?
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
| p****0
发帖数: 611 | 4 Very often I'll check flop and fold to any bet OOP. But as you said, this
hand I decided to play trick.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: 只要不是习惯性的拿着55在这样的spot抓bluff，这手牌怎么打都不算错太离谱。
: 当然，换了我的话，我会fold turn。
| p****0
发帖数: 611 | 5 Agree, in the long run, should not play 55 like that OOP. But this time, I
decided to play. So here is my analysis:
First, LP didn't raise PF. So big pair is less likely. Flop he just flat my
bet, he might have 6 or 2. But I could have those too. Turn hero check
OOP, LP thin value bet. If LP hold 62 or 66, he would do that. 62 is less
likey since he call 15 PF raise. 66 is more likely. Villain could also have
77. But he could also have two over cards. So hero called. On the river,
hero check, LP led out. If he only have one pair, or set of 2 with kicker,
he would check couse he had showdown value. So his move is polorized.
Either he had monster or he was bluffing. So should I call?
draw
with
flop
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: flop bet is kind of donation without position and a medium hand and no draw
: and relatively deep.
: with quite a few guys behind, they could easily float or slow play you with
: anything, wild wide range.
: you should foresee the turn/river double check coming before your flop bet.
: as played, i'd fold turn and fold here on the river against a new player.
: true that he bluffed once, but it doesn't mean he bluffs every time. a
: tricky player could play hands like 99+ here. he doesn't pop you on the flop
: , but it doesn't mean he has only air.
:
| j**y
发帖数: 7014 | 6 如果我有2和kicker，我会在river bet，为啥要check？难道不是miss value了吗？
I
my
less
have
,
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: Agree, in the long run, should not play 55 like that OOP. But this time, I
: decided to play. So here is my analysis:
: First, LP didn't raise PF. So big pair is less likely. Flop he just flat my
: bet, he might have 6 or 2. But I could have those too. Turn hero check
: OOP, LP thin value bet. If LP hold 62 or 66, he would do that. 62 is less
: likey since he call 15 PF raise. 66 is more likely. Villain could also have
: 77. But he could also have two over cards. So hero called. On the river,
: hero check, LP led out. If he only have one pair, or set of 2 with kicker,
: he would check couse he had showdown value. So his move is polorized.
: Either he had monster or he was bluffing. So should I call?
| p****t
发帖数: 292 | 7 you are just making excuses for your lack of discipline | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 8 if we check call flop here, then trash 2x is more likely in our range, but $
45 bet + 2 checks give our "secret" away.
that's why for me, reversely, sometimes i'd like to bet medium with flopped
trips:
1) to build a pot;
2) to encourage a bluff somewhere;
3) to get some control/info. when the opponent does have trips too.
55 here is no different than A6s alike, board is too dry, not likely to
improve, awkward stack size, out of position against a "so-far" loose player
, not very favorable situation.
actually turn 7 and river 8 are more troublesome than K/J alike because you
could hardly believe he plays trash, then catches a weak pair, then plays
aggressively ...
i still believe he could have 99 to QQ here, and play the same way at a new
table.
total air? i guess the chances are < 20%.
I
my
less
have
,
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: Agree, in the long run, should not play 55 like that OOP. But this time, I
: decided to play. So here is my analysis:
: First, LP didn't raise PF. So big pair is less likely. Flop he just flat my
: bet, he might have 6 or 2. But I could have those too. Turn hero check
: OOP, LP thin value bet. If LP hold 62 or 66, he would do that. 62 is less
: likey since he call 15 PF raise. 66 is more likely. Villain could also have
: 77. But he could also have two over cards. So hero called. On the river,
: hero check, LP led out. If he only have one pair, or set of 2 with kicker,
: he would check couse he had showdown value. So his move is polorized.
: Either he had monster or he was bluffing. So should I call?
| d*****0
发帖数: 1500 | 9
这里还有一个game flow的因素在里面。
道理很简单，面对喜欢make move的对手，适当的抵抗，可以避免以后更多的tough
spots，同时貌似在abc情况下－ev的move，可能在这里是0ev或者是＋ev。
话说回来，死打abc，虽然不会输大钱，但是会被好的玩家exploit，所以，当发现桌上
存在2个以上这样的对手时，就要开始考虑balance自己的line了
【在 p****t 的大作中提到】
: you are just making excuses for your lack of discipline
| p****0
发帖数: 611 | 10 Most of the time, nobody will led out with lower pair on this spot. this
hand I played trick, but only I know that. Other players have to guess what
I have. 2 can be easily in my range giving OOP and my led out on the flop.
This spot, A2, 66, 77, 88 can easily beat 2 and kicker. Yes, I check on
the river, but it does not mean I don't have those hands.
【在 j**y 的大作中提到】
: 如果我有2和kicker，我会在river bet，为啥要check？难道不是miss value了吗？
:
: I
: my
: less
: have
: ,
| | | p****0
发帖数: 611 | 11 you might be ture. But if too discipline, you can be easily expliod by
other players.
【在 p****t 的大作中提到】
: you are just making excuses for your lack of discipline
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 12 there's one problem here, yes, we all play tricky for a few hands here and
there, but for this hand, this guy is too new (a couple hands, right?) to
see all of that (your pattern, range, showdown, etc.)
so if he just plays "normal" poker at a new table, he'd have a hard time to
believe you have a monster here, and check two streets to trap him.
after all, too many ppl could not resist the strong urge to check/raise
somewhere with trips or better.
what
.
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: Most of the time, nobody will led out with lower pair on this spot. this
: hand I played trick, but only I know that. Other players have to guess what
: I have. 2 can be easily in my range giving OOP and my led out on the flop.
: This spot, A2, 66, 77, 88 can easily beat 2 and kicker. Yes, I check on
: the river, but it does not mean I don't have those hands.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 13 to fight back, it has to be the right time and right person. i guess this is
part of discipline too.
as for exploitation, yeah, it's part of the game. just like you can try to
steal 10 BBs from me in a row, but on the 6th try, i'd fight back with any
trash (with an exit plan too), on the 12th try, i'd fight back with a real
monster, ... i guess it's all about being "selective", not tilting.
know what your opponents are doing/thinking, and play against it accordingly
, well, it takes a lot of patience.
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: you might be ture. But if too discipline, you can be easily expliod by
: other players.
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 14 or put it in another way, if we're too afraid/concerned about being
exploited, then we're already (mentally) exploited.
to me, if luck is all right, poker is all about how to outplay your
opponents, by knowing more, analyzing deeper, and planning ahead/better.
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: you might be ture. But if too discipline, you can be easily expliod by
: other players.
| a**o
发帖数: 730 | 15 hehe, if I am Villain, I would not believe you from a ABC poker player. You
made it too complex, it is hard to be understood by a simple player.
what
.
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: Most of the time, nobody will led out with lower pair on this spot. this
: hand I played trick, but only I know that. Other players have to guess what
: I have. 2 can be easily in my range giving OOP and my led out on the flop.
: This spot, A2, 66, 77, 88 can easily beat 2 and kicker. Yes, I check on
: the river, but it does not mean I don't have those hands.
| D********2
发帖数: 2153 | 16 hardly any1 is too discipline,especially live (online is different), usually
too sloppy, also you can play tricky with other hands in much better
situation, this one as played is just plain bad
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: you might be ture. But if too discipline, you can be easily expliod by
: other players.
| p****t
发帖数: 292 | 17 When a player is not disciplined, he lets emotion get into his decision
making. Instead of justifying your play with math and logic, your reasoning
was 'I don't want to be perceived as ABC so they make moves on me, therefore
I mix it up by betting 55 here'. IMO, that's not the right approach. | s*****s
发帖数: 1130 | 18 IMHO, he could bet river for value without a monster.
I
my
less
have
,
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: Agree, in the long run, should not play 55 like that OOP. But this time, I
: decided to play. So here is my analysis:
: First, LP didn't raise PF. So big pair is less likely. Flop he just flat my
: bet, he might have 6 or 2. But I could have those too. Turn hero check
: OOP, LP thin value bet. If LP hold 62 or 66, he would do that. 62 is less
: likey since he call 15 PF raise. 66 is more likely. Villain could also have
: 77. But he could also have two over cards. So hero called. On the river,
: hero check, LP led out. If he only have one pair, or set of 2 with kicker,
: he would check couse he had showdown value. So his move is polorized.
: Either he had monster or he was bluffing. So should I call?
| p****0
发帖数: 611 | 19 Villain most of the time is a tounament player. OK player. Had some
history with him before. Capable of making move. First time played 2/5 with
him though. I strongly believe he was playing two over cards, trying to
play position against me this hand.
to
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: there's one problem here, yes, we all play tricky for a few hands here and
: there, but for this hand, this guy is too new (a couple hands, right?) to
: see all of that (your pattern, range, showdown, etc.)
: so if he just plays "normal" poker at a new table, he'd have a hard time to
: believe you have a monster here, and check two streets to trap him.
: after all, too many ppl could not resist the strong urge to check/raise
: somewhere with trips or better.
:
: what
: .
| s*****s
发帖数: 1130 | 20 This is not HU. Since Villain called you on 4 way flop with one more player
behind, I believe he more likely has a better hand than you. As played, if
you are going to check call on turn and river, it might be a better idea to
lead out bet on turn and river. At least you got some folding equity and
you can pot control if you are going to loss anyway.
UTG
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: 2/5 live, full table. Hero had stack of 600ish. Villain just sit down for
: couple hands. Villain bluffed once and failed. This hand hero had 55 at UTG
: . Limed in. LP raised to 15, 4 caller including villain at MP, BTN, BB and
: hero.
: Flop 622r, hero led out 45, MP called. Turn 7, hero check, MP led out 100,
: hero?
: Hero called the turn in fact. Should hero call, fold or raise at turn?
: River 8, hero check, MP led out 175, hero?
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
| | | s*****s
发帖数: 1130 | 21 If you have some tell, then it is a totally different case. But still,
floating on four way pot with someone behind is not as common as when two
heads up.
with
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: Villain most of the time is a tounament player. OK player. Had some
: history with him before. Capable of making move. First time played 2/5 with
: him though. I strongly believe he was playing two over cards, trying to
: play position against me this hand.
:
: to
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 22 Heads up maybe, hard to believe he floated you with 2 high cards total air
with 3 people yet to act unless villain is some action junky. The only thing
u beat here is 45, 34?
UTG
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: 2/5 live, full table. Hero had stack of 600ish. Villain just sit down for
: couple hands. Villain bluffed once and failed. This hand hero had 55 at UTG
: . Limed in. LP raised to 15, 4 caller including villain at MP, BTN, BB and
: hero.
: Flop 622r, hero led out 45, MP called. Turn 7, hero check, MP led out 100,
: hero?
: Hero called the turn in fact. Should hero call, fold or raise at turn?
: River 8, hero check, MP led out 175, hero?
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 7.8
| s*********r
发帖数: 4210 | 23 I like the idea of leading out with bet on turn and river.
player
if
to
【在 s*****s 的大作中提到】
: This is not HU. Since Villain called you on 4 way flop with one more player
: behind, I believe he more likely has a better hand than you. As played, if
: you are going to check call on turn and river, it might be a better idea to
: lead out bet on turn and river. At least you got some folding equity and
: you can pot control if you are going to loss anyway.
:
:
: UTG
| p****0
发帖数: 611 | 24 Agree, this pot might not be a good one for 55 play like that. I played bad
, and made my crying call on the river, knowing that the only hand I can
beat is bluffing. And luckly, Villain said he had nothing. And my 55 hold up
.
I'm not tryinig to defend I made a right play. I wanted to point out,
sometimes, our pair is as good as other stong hand.
Think about in this way, if you are the Villain and had nothing and decided
to purely play position, how would you play out this hand?
usually
【在 D********2 的大作中提到】
: hardly any1 is too discipline,especially live (online is different), usually
: too sloppy, also you can play tricky with other hands in much better
: situation, this one as played is just plain bad
| s*****s
发帖数: 1130 | 25 I would raise on flop.
bad
up
decided
【在 p****0 的大作中提到】
: Agree, this pot might not be a good one for 55 play like that. I played bad
: , and made my crying call on the river, knowing that the only hand I can
: beat is bluffing. And luckly, Villain said he had nothing. And my 55 hold up
: .
: I'm not tryinig to defend I made a right play. I wanted to point out,
: sometimes, our pair is as good as other stong hand.
: Think about in this way, if you are the Villain and had nothing and decided
: to purely play position, how would you play out this hand?
:
: usually
| n***a
发帖数: 274 | 26 +
【在 s*****s 的大作中提到】
: I would raise on flop.
:
: bad
: up
: decided
| c*****t
发帖数: 817 | 27 这牌有啥好说的。call不了的。非要找理由call的话，那就意味着在自己的头上贴个条
：call station。当然，前面D神说的也对。给自己贴个call station的条在meta game
的level上也不一定是坏事。起码震慑全桌使得那些戴耳机墨镜穿HOOD的donk们也都不
敢再bluff你了。
这里call了也很可能call对了。这不奇怪。这就是这个世界上之所以还有这么多call
station存在的原因。那就是因为和这把牌类似的情况下他们经常纠结的call到底然后
高兴的
发现自己居然是对的。
就我自己来说。我肯定不call。连turn也不call。这牌flop直接check/fold最好。打牌
要尽量避免猜猜猜的纠结局面。何况这是明显赢小输大的flop。除非这是有电视直播的
HSP另当别论。那我要换档搞hero call。搞对了从durrr手里赢$200k加赞助。 |
|
