Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 1 I hope you can all hear me, can you? Is it quite audible? Right. This is the
last talk. During the last three times that we have met here we have been
talking about the chaos in the world, the misery, the suffering, and the
desire for entertainment and the avoidance of fear. We went into several
things concerning our daily life. During all these talks it must have been
very clear that we are concerned with the human transformation
psychologically, for that alone can bring about a change in the society in
which we live because in ourselves there is a radical psychological
transformation. That is what we have been going over together. And this
evening we said we would talk about meditation.
This is really a very, very complex question, and to go into it very deeply
one requires a mind that is passionate, and we explained what the meaning of
that word is. It requires a great earnestness, and an attention, which is
not concentration. But before we go into this question of meditation, we
ought to consider why, throughout the world, human beings are becoming
degenerate. Degeneracy means the failure to live excellently, in its highest
form. And degeneracy also implies the cultivation of memory only, and
acting according to that pattern, according to that knowledge as memory.
Therefore life becomes more and more mechanical. Our responses are
mechanical, our attitudes are mechanical and our actions. All that indicates
the degeneracy of the human mind. And to put an end to that degeneracy with
all its violence, brutality, cruelty, mainly concerned with amusement and
the search after pleasure, to put an end to all that one needs quite a
different kind of energy. Not the energy of strife, not the energy of
thought, not the energy of contention, argument, but a totally different
kind of energy. And it is through meditation only that one comes upon this
energy, which is not the product of thought.
First of all, most people in this country have never heard that word '
meditation' before the invasion of the gurus. And I wish that you had never
heard that word, because then you and I, the speaker, can investigate
together, to find out whether it is necessary to meditate, what value it has
, what significance, not the market value but what significance it has in
one's life, the daily living, because with that we are concerned - the
transformation of the human mind and heart in the daily living; and if there
is, or if there is not, something sacred, holy in life. And that is what we
are this evening going to investigate together, to understand the
significance of meditation, what are all its implications, and to deny
totally what is not important, essential.
All religions - organised belief which are called religions - throughout the
world have stated as a form of faith, belief and hope that there is
something immeasurable, that there is something beyond; and you can come
upon it only through great austerity, through self-abnegation, through
control of your desires, devoting your life to good work and so on. At the
end of it the reward is something that is eternal, blissful and so on. If we
could this evening put away all these ideas, concepts and theories and find
out for ourselves if there is something sacred -not the word, because the
word is not the thing, the description is not the described - if there is
something real, not an imagination, not something illusory, fanciful, a myth
but a reality that can never be destroyed, a truth that is abiding. And to
find that out, to come upon it, all authority of any kind, specially
spiritual, must be totally set aside. Because authority implies conformity,
obedience, acceptance of a certain pattern. A mind must be capable of
standing alone, be capable of being a light to itself. And following another
, belonging to a certain group, following certain methods of meditation laid
down by an authority, by tradition, by group practice and so on are totally
irrelevant to a man that investigates into this question, whether there is
something eternal, timeless, something that is not measurable by thought,
that operates in our daily life. Because if it does not function, if it is
not part of our daily life then meditation is an escape and absolutely
useless.
So what we have been talking about during the last three talks is the
investigation into behaviour, to establish right relationship, not based on
image, hurts, that utter lack of love, and to have no psychological fear at
all. All this implies that one must stand alone. There is a difference
between isolation and aloneness, between loneliness and being able to stand
by yourself clearly, unconfused, uncontaminated.
Because meditation is really quite an extraordinary process if one goes into
it, as we are going to this evening. So we are not telling you how to
meditate. That is too absurd. When you ask, how to meditate, you want a
pattern, a system, which can be laid down by thought - thought, as we
pointed out the other day, what it thinks about is reality, but it is not
truth. So there is no 'how' - how to meditate. The word 'meditation' , the
root meaning of that word, is to ponder, to think over, according to the
dictionary, to give one's attention deeply; and also it means to measure.
Measure implies time, movement from here to there. And when you ask how to
meditate, time is implied - time being measurement of thought. And
measurement is necessary technologically, physically; but measurement
psychologically has no value at all. Measurement implies comparison,
conformity, imitation, obedience. And time is involved.
So we must understand this question of time. Time is movement, both
physically and psychologically, inwardly. Time is necessary to go from here
to there. The distance covered, mileage, kilometres and so on, that requires
time. And is there psychological time at all? Or thought has invented it
for psychological purposes in order to achieve a psychological result. For
that you need time, but is there psychological time at all? I hope you are
following all this because talking to oneself, one can do that in one's room
. But we are sharing this together, not the speaker is giving you something,
but together we are taking a journey, together we are eating the same food,
the same nourishment, drinking at the same fountain. What is important is
the water, not who has led you to the fountain. So we are partaking, sharing
this investigation together. So please do listen, because it affects your
whole life, it affects your activity, your labours, your daily relationship,
the society in which you live, the culture which you have created. We are
concerned with the whole of life, not one segment of it, one fragment of it,
but the whole. That is, what you do, what you think, what you feel, how you
behave. And as we are concerned with the whole of life we cannot possibly
take a fragment which is thought, and through thought resolve all our
problems, because thought itself is a fragment, and it may give to itself an
authority to bring all the other fragments together, but thought has
created these fragments. And when we are investigating, sharing together
this question of meditation we have to find out the measurement of thought
as time, measurement as a movement towards a particular direction, as time -
to control, to discipline, to achieve so-called enlightenment. All that is
implied in measurement.
So we are asking, though physically time is necessary to go from here to
your house, to build a house, a bridge, to learn a language, to learn how to
drive a car and so on, time is necessary, but is there psychological time?
Is there a betterment of the 'me', of the self? And is the 'better' the good
? All that is involved in considering the question of time. Because in
meditation one must understand the significance of thought, its value and
its total irrelevancy in going beyond measurement. We are going to go into
all that presently.
So first, meditation implies the freedom from measurement, that is, freedom
from time. Is that possible? Because we are conditioned to think in terms of
progress, of gradual achievement. We believe in psychological evolution.
But is there such a thing as 'me' psychologically achieving something other
than the projection of thought? You know, you all most of you probably
believe in God, don't you?
Audience: Yes.
K: That is a rather feeble 'yes'! And when you investigate into this belief,
what is God? There is the Hebrew god, the Christian god, the Hindu god, the
Muslim god and so on. Is it an invention of the mind, of thought? Is it a
projection of thought because thought says to itself there is nothing
permanent in life - my relationship, my love, my profession, my knowledge,
my experience, faith, in all that there is nothing permanent. And it
projects in fancy, in imagination, in hope, an idea called god. And so the
projection is yourself ennobled, so you are worshipping yourself. Do you
understand the significance of that? So we are not investigating into the
reality whether there is god or no god, because that is fairly simple
because there are so many gods, as so many beliefs - they are all
projections of thought. And thought in itself, what it thinks about is
reality but it is not truth.
So we are going to find out through meditation if there is something that is
not projected by thought, that is not an illusion, a myth. And so to go
into that one must ask whether thought can be controlled, whether thought
can be held in abeyance, whether thought can be suppressed, so that the mind
is completely still. You know this has been a problem for a man who is
really truly trying to find out, trying to meditate. That is, to control
thought. So he says, 'I can only control thought through discipline, through
concentration, through total identification with that which thought has
projected.' And all the scriptures, the teachers of meditation, their
systems, all say - if you have gone into it - control, discipline, obey. And
the speaker is saying something quite the contrary: not the opposite of
what they have said, but what they have said is merely a process of
suppression, a process of disciplining the mind or the thought according to
a pattern in order to achieve a result. So we have to go into this question
of control. Control implies, the controller and the controlled, doesn't it?
Who is the controller? Is that not also created by thought, one of the
fragments of thought which has assumed the authority as the controller? If
you see the truth of that then the controller is the controlled, the
experiencer is the experienced, the thinker is the thought - they are not
two separate entities. So if you understand that then there is no necessity
to control. Then what takes place, if you don't control, then what takes
place? I hope you are sharing all this together, are we? At least I hope so.
Otherwise you are wasting your time.
Then what takes place, if there is no controller because the controller is
the controlled, then what happens? When there is that division between the
controller and the controlled there is conflict, there is a wastage of
energy. And when the controller is the controlled there is no wastage of
energy, then there is the accumulation of all that energy which has been
dissipated in suppression, in resistance, brought about through division as
the controller and the controlled. And when there is no division you have
all that energy to go beyond that which you thought must be controlled. Is
this clear? Please at the end of the talk there are going to be no questions
, so please if you don't understand we will go into it differently.
Discipline means to learn, disciple who learns from a teacher. The word
means 'to learn'. In learning any language, any technique, that very
technique, that very language creates its own order, its own act of learning
. And in meditation this must be clearly understood, that there is no
control of thought, no disciplining of thought, because the one who
disciplines thought is a fragment of thought, one who controls thought is a
fragment of thought. If you see the truth of that then you have all that
energy which has been dissipated through comparison, through control,
through suppression and so on, all that energy to go beyond what actually is
. Then in meditation - we are not advising you how to meditate or what
meditation is; it is only fools give advice, and those who accept advice are
also fools. So we are not giving advice; we are saying what is not
meditation. All the systems that you have been offered in this country by
the so-called people who seem to know what meditation is, if you follow a
system it needs practice, when you practise you make your mind mechanical,
repetition, you practise in order to achieve a result. You know we were told
the other day by a pianist that a good pianist never practises, what he
practises is his mistakes. So each time he plays that is his practice. All
right, may I go on?
So in meditation don't follow anybody, including the speaker. Don't follow
any system because it will make your mind dull, stupid, mechanical. It
destroys whatever energy you have because you need tremendous energy to go
beyond all thought. And they are introducing in this country, most
unfortunately, miracles - not that there aren't miracles, there are, but not
the miracles of these gurus - they are introducing all kinds of things
which ancient India kept secret. And when you vulgarise these secrets they
lose their potency. Now there are these Kundalini meditations, Yoga
meditation and all the rest of it. You know what yoga means? It is a
Sanskrit word which means to join; to join the higher with the lower, the
higher spirit, the higher energy, the highest form of the self to the lower
- to join. And that implies a division. And who is to join them? And so they
invent a higher self. So there is always division, always duality, and so
maintain conflict. So if one may point out, don't follow all this. Use your
reason, clarity to find out the truth.
And in meditation the essential thing is the mind must be absolutely quiet.
And is that possible? You know they say it is possible if you know how to
breathe properly, if you sit in a certain posture, cross your legs, hold
your hands in a certain way, do all kinds of tricks, and then perhaps you
will have a mind that is utterly quiet. There is a story of a teacher to
whom a very devout and serious disciple comes. And takes the posture of
cross-legged, closing his eyes, holding his hands in a particular way, and
so the teacher says, 'What are you doing, my friend?' He says, 'I am
meditating.' And he goes on meditating. So the teacher picks up two pieces
of stone and rubs them together, making a noise. So the meditator, the
disciple says, 'Master, what are you doing'? 'I am trying to rub these two
stones to make one of them into a mirror'. And the disciple says, 'Master,
you can do that for ten thousand years, you will never make that stone into
a mirror'. So the teachers says, 'You can sit like that for ten thousand
years' - and that is what you are doing. You learn all the technique, all
the ways that they are teaching you, but your mind and your heart are empty.
So we are asking whether the mind can be absolutely still, because that
which is still has great energy. It is the summation of energy. And can that
mind, which is chattering, always in movement, which is thought, always
looking back, remembering, accumulating knowledge, this constantly moving,
changing, can that thought be completely still? Have you ever tried, if you
are interested and serious, to find out if thought can be still? And if it
is not, how are you going to find out how to bring about this stillness of
thought? You see thought is time; time is movement; time is measurement. Now
in daily life you measure, don't you? You compare, both physically and
psychologically. That is measurement - comparison means measurement. Can you
live a life without comparison in daily life, not in meditation but in
daily life can you cease to compare altogether? And you do compare, when you
are choosing two materials, this cloth or that cloth, when you compare two
cars, their mechanism, when you compare knowledge, but psychologically,
inwardly we are comparing ourselves with somebody; and when that comparison
ceases, as it must, then can you stand completely alone? That is what is
implied when there is no comparison, which doesn't mean that you vegetate.
So to find out in daily life, not to compare that you have been happy and
now you are not happy and you want to be happy; you have had certain
experience and you want that experience enlarged, given strength and so on;
comparing in your relationship how happy you were when you were first
married, when you first met the girl and later on how it withers. That is
remembrance of things past, comparing with the present. Can you live a life
without comparison? Do it once and you will find out what is implied in that
. Then you throw off a tremendous burden. And when you throw off a burden
which is unnecessary you have energy.
And we are asking: is it possible for thought to be completely still? And
meditation is a non-directive in which there is no operation of will at all.
So we will go into that. Will, that is, 'I will do, I will control, I must
achieve' - all that is the action of will. Will is the essence of desire,
the achievement of a certain result through desire, and desire accentuated,
hardened is will. And we are educated to exercise our will. Is there a way
of living in daily life without the action of will? Will implies a form of
resistance, does it not - as concentration is a form of resistance. So is it
possible to live a life, daily life, in which there is no exercise of will,
comparison and how is this to come about? Attention is something totally
different from concentration and the action of will. You know when you
attend to something there is no centre as the entity who is attending. Have
you ever done any kind of attention, given any kind of attention to
something totally? Now you are listening, aren't you, to what the speaker is
saying. Are you giving attention to him, to what he is saying, or are you
listening with a comparative mind which has already acquired certain
knowledge and comparing what is being said to what you already know?
Listening half-heartedly, interpreting what is being said according to your
own knowledge, your own tendency, to your own prejudice? All that is not
attention, is it? But if you gave complete attention, that means with your
body, with your nerves, with your eyes, with your ears, with your mind, with
your whole being, when you so attend there is no centre from which you are
attending, there is only attention. That attention is complete silence. Have
you understood this? Please do listen to this. Nobody is going to tell you
all these things, unfortunately. And so please give your attention to what
is being said, non-comparatively, don't interpret what is being said
according to what already you know. So that the very act of listening is a
miracle of attention. And in that attention there is no border, there is no
frontier, and therefore there is no direction, there is only attention. And
when there is that attention there is no me and you, there is no duality,
there is no observer and the observed, there is only attention. And this is
not possible when the mind is moving in a particular direction. Do you
understand?
Look, we are educated and conditioned to move according to directions, from
here to there. We have an idea, a belief, a concept, a formula that there is
a reality, that there is a bliss, that there is something beyond thought
and we fix that as a goal, as an ideal, a direction and walk in that
direction. When you walk in a direction there is no space. When you are
concentrated and walking or thinking in a particular direction you have no
space in the mind. And space is necessary. You have no space when your mind
is crowded with attachments, with fears, with pursuit of pleasures, with the
desire for power, position, then the mind is overcrowded; it has no space.
And where there is attention there is no direction, but space.
Now, meditation implies no movement at all. That means the mind is totally
still, it is not moving in any direction. There is no movement, movement
being time, movement being thought. If you see the truth of it - not the
verbal description of it but the truth, which cannot be described - if you
see the truth of this then there is that quiet still mind. And it is
necessary to have a quiet mind, not in order to go to sleep longer, or to do
your job better, or to get more money, but as most people's lives are so
empty, so poor, though they may have a great deal of knowledge their lives
are poor, contradictory, not whole, unhappy, so all that is poverty. And
they waste their life trying to become rich inwardly, cultivating various
forms of virtue and, you know all the rest of that silly nonsense. Not that
virtue is not necessary, virtue is order, and order can only be understood
when you have gone into this question of disorder in yourself. We do lead a
disorderly life. That is a fact. And to understand what that disorder is,
the contradiction, the confusion, the various assertive desires
contradicting each other, saying one thing and doing another, having ideals
and the division between you and the ideal. All that is disorder. To be
aware of that disorder, to give your whole attention to that disorder, out
of that attention comes order, which is virtue, a living thing, not a thing
contrived, practised and made ugly.
And man desires power. He has conquered the air, nature; he wants power
politically; he wants power spiritually; he wants power in his relationship.
And everybody is seeking power, which gives him a certain status. And in
meditation you do, the mind does acquire certain powers, but they are to be
totally avoided because then mind or thought becomes a slave in the pursuit
of those powers which give ultimately pleasure: powers of thought-reading,
producing miracles and so on.
So meditation in daily life is the transformation of the mind, the
psychological revolution, so that we live in daily life, not in theory, not
as an ideal, but in every movement of our life, in which there is compassion
, love, and the energy to transcend all the pettiness, the narrowness, the
shallow life that one leads. When that mind is quiet, really still, not made
still through desire, through will, then there is a totally different kind
of movement which is not of time. You know to go into that would be absurd.
It would be a verbal description, therefore not real. What is important is
the art of meditation. The word 'art' means to put everything in its right
place. You understand the meaning of that word? Not that which is contained
in the museums, but putting everything in our life, in our daily life, in
the right place. That is the art of meditation, so that there is no
confusion. And when there is in our daily life order, righteous behaviour
and a mind that is completely quiet, then the mind will find out for itself
whether there is the immeasurable or not. Until you find that out, that
which is the highest form of holiness, one's life is dull, meaningless, as
most people's lives are. And that is why meditation, right meditation, is
absolutely necessary, so that the mind is made young, fresh, innocent. As we
explained the other day, the word 'innocency' means a mind that is
incapable of being hurt. All that is implied in meditation, which is not
divorced from our daily living. In the very understanding of our daily
living meditation is necessary. That is, to attend completely to what we are
doing. When you talk to somebody, the way you walk, the way you think, what
you think, to give your attention to that. That is part of meditation.
So meditation is not an escape, is not something mysterious, and out of that
meditation comes a life that is holy, a life that is sacred, and therefore
you treat all things as sacred.
J. KRISHNAMURTI, 1975
This Light in Oneself | Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 2 有点长， 小结一下points：
It requires a great earnestness, and an attention, which is NOT
concentration.
And it is through meditation only that one comes upon this energy, which is
not the product of thought
all authority of any kind, specially spiritual, must be totally set aside
if it is not part of our daily life then meditation is an escape and
absolutely useless.
meditation implies the freedom from measurement, that is, freedom from time
the controller is the controlled
And this is not possible when the mind is moving in a particular direction
And where there is attention there is no direction, but space
out of that attention comes order, which is virtue, a living thing
So meditation in daily life is the transformation of the mind, the
psychological revolution, so that we live in daily life, not in theory, not
as an ideal, but in every movement of our life, in which there is compassion
, love, and the energy to transcend all the pettiness, the narrowness, the
shallow life that one leads.
So meditation is not an escape, is not something mysterious, and out of
thatmeditation comes a life that is holy, a life that is sacred, and
therefore you treat all things as sacred | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 3 I just finished reading the whole thing. It is very worth reading. Thanks!
the last talk.
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: I hope you can all hear me, can you? Is it quite audible? Right. This is the
: last talk. During the last three times that we have met here we have been
: talking about the chaos in the world, the misery, the suffering, and the
: desire for entertainment and the avoidance of fear. We went into several
: things concerning our daily life. During all these talks it must have been
: very clear that we are concerned with the human transformation
: psychologically, for that alone can bring about a change in the society in
: which we live because in ourselves there is a radical psychological
: transformation. That is what we have been going over together. And this
: evening we said we would talk about meditation.
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