H********g
发帖数: 43926 | 1 【 以下文字转载自 Military 讨论区 】
发信人: buce (buce), 信区: Military
标 题: 农科院这文章居然发science了 (转载)
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri Sep 9 18:57:08 2016, 美东)
发信人: buce (buce), 信区: Biology
标 题: 农科院这文章居然发science了
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri Sep 9 18:56:46 2016, 美东)
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/353/6304/1107.2
太令人葱白了。 |
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s*******1
发帖数: 11216 | 2 Dog
1.any 5.8oz can of hills science diet small toy breed dog food
Free up to 1.4 dollar
2 coupons expire 6/30/12
2.$2 off any size bag of hills science diet small toy breed dog food
2 coupons expire 6/30/12
3.get a free 12.8oz can of hills science diet ideal balance with purchase of
any ideal balance dry dog food.
.....to be continuted |
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n*****g
发帖数: 25 | 3 One needs to understand science to understand the use of science to reflect on
the existence of God.
For example, entropy -- the arrow of time -- points to a chaotic system with
heat death. But the universe is very ordered, so many scientist start to
believe that science actually show the existence of God.
in order to make any kind of discussion, you need to understand what is
entropy, why is it the arrow of time, 2nd law of thermodynamics such and
such...
another example, the set of irrational |
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a*****t
发帖数: 216 | 4
on
Do you understand science? Then you must know that science is not all about
what we've found, more important aspect of science is how we found it -- the
method we used to solve problems and pursuing the truth. As far as I know,
there's no scientific evidence that support God(s) might exist.
speculate
Do they have any logical link or physical evidence to support the God exist?
It's exactly the behavior I'd expect from those close minded Christians who
knows nothing (or conveniently forgot abo |
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i******e
发帖数: 171 | 5 http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/10/28/science.debate.reut/index.html
Friday, October 28, 2005; Posted: 1:14 p.m. EDT (17:14 GMT)
Manage Alerts | What Is This? WASHINGTON, (Reuters) -- A bitter debate about
how to teach evolution in U.S. high schools is prompting a crisis of
confidence among scientists, and some senior academics warn that science
itself is under assault.
In the past month, the interim president of Cornell University and the dean of
the Stanford University School of Medicine |
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E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 6 Let me make one thing clear. I've no problem to admit science
is not the ultimate truth. But this statement is a bit odd.
I guess what you meant is "any commonly accepted science theory"
is not the ultimate truth. Science is a methodology or a process,
you can't say a methodology is true or false.
That said, that doesn't mean religion has any credibility on
truth seeking. Otherwise, I'd be very interested to know what
kind of "truth" religion has ever discovered. |
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s****y
发帖数: 1574 | 8 I hear you; and as an ex-Christian and currently a Deist I totally
understand why you try to "solve" the conflicts between science and faith in
the first place. Been there. Done that. Some of your arguments sound so
familiar that I can't help smiling (not laughing though).
You are doing this in vain,for science is evidence-based; and faith is
simply NOT evidence-based. That's where their difference lies in; and this
conflict can't be reconciled,despite your best intentions.
Btw, neither science |
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w******d
发帖数: 1301 | 9
appearance
hehe, okey, if you believe science don't have such hidden faith, it is fine.It is not my main point. I would not further argue on that. In fact, it make my argument even
stronger: If hidden truth may not be revealed by observation as you agreed,
science as a methodology to discover the truth should understand that it may
not reach the ultimate truth through observations. So science should be
humble always, and avoid becoming the guideline to judge what is the
ultimate truth.
If scie |
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R******d
发帖数: 5739 | 10
hehe, okey, if you believe science don't have such hidden faith, it is fine.
It is not my main point. I would not further argue on that. In fact, it make
my argument even
stronger: If hidden truth may not be revealed by observation as you agreed,
science as a methodology to discover the truth should understand that it may
not reach the ultimate truth through observations. So science should be
humble always, and avoid becoming the guideline to judge what is the
ultimate truth. |
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t**k
发帖数: 260 | 11 "Logic is above all. It is neither induction nor deduction."
Logic is about deduction.
"Axioms come from induction"
Axioms don't have to come from induction. Say, logical axioms.
"Science = induction"
That is over simplification. For example, one important principle in science
is the Occam razor. I wouldn't say it's from either induction or deduction.
Btw, I prefer to think of science as a probabilistic system, instead of a
classic logic system.
But
,
all |
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j*****x
发帖数: 33 | 12 Please read this, Logic is from experience.
Logic (from the Greek λογική logikē)[1] is the study of arguments
.[2] Logic is used in most intellectual activities, but is studied primarily
in the disciplines of philosophy, mathematics, and computer science. Logic
examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and
which are fallacies. It is one kind of critical thinking. In philosophy, the
study of logic figures in most major areas of focus: epistemology, ethics,
metap... 阅读全帖 |
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w******d
发帖数: 1301 | 13 【 以下文字转载自 Belief 讨论区 】
发信人: windmind (仟俩银子), 信区: Belief
标 题: Thoughts on the conflicts between science and faith
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Oct 25 20:25:04 2009, 美东)
Thoughts on the conflicts between science and faith
There seems to be a lot of tension between science and faith in the news
media nowadays. Because I am a Christian and I am doing scientific research.
I thought a lot about this and I would like to share about my perspectives.
I looked up the dictionary on internet and found the following |
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o***a
发帖数: 724 | 14 http://www.bupt.edu.cn/pages1/out/show_news.asp?id=8208
2008年1月25日，美国Science周刊发表了英国学者R. Jenkins和A. M. Burton的文章，
提出了一种基于image averaging的人脸识别算法，在对25位世界名人的500幅照片的识
别中，取得了令人震惊的100%的识别率，并提出了将该方法用于护照等证件照识别的建
议。
我校在学博士生邓伟洪敏锐地意识到该文章存在问题，经过与导师郭军等人讨论和
分析，找到了文章的问题所在，并迅速写出了一篇技术评论。Science杂志经过对原文
作者进行置疑，确认了邓伟洪、郭军等人的观点，在2008年8月15日的周刊上发表了这
篇评论，指出了原文中的错误，并澄清了人脸识别中的几个基本问题。
据悉，这是我校师生首次在Science上发表论文，是一次历史性的突破。显示出北
邮人攀登世界科技高峰、建设世界高水平大学的信心和勇气，标志着新一代北邮人引领
学术、挑战权威的英雄气概。 |
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h*d
发帖数: 19309 | 16 方舟子写的，后面有讨论
发信人: bigbigwolf (灰太郎), 信区: LifeScience
标 题: 施一公的清华团队在Science发表了错误论文怎么办？
发信站: 水木社区 (Thu Jul 9 09:21:04 2009), 站内
施一公的清华团队最近声称解析出了AdiC转运蛋白的晶体结构，论文发表在Science
(2009 Jun 19;324(5934):1565-8).上，清华大学为此大肆宣传：
“施一公2008年正式回国，他曾任普林斯顿大学Warner-Lambert/Parke-Davis终身
讲席教授，并且毅然谢绝了霍华德休斯研究中心研究员（HHMI）的聘请（入选HHMI被认
为是生命科学领域的最高荣誉之一【方舟子按：原来生命科学领域又多出了一项最高荣
誉，只要施一公沾上了即可】）。虽然施一公教授回国时间不长，但其领导的实验室已
取得一个又一个的重要成果。这是继2008年末在Nature-Structural & Molecular
Biology发表论文之后，时隔不到半年又在Science杂志发表的另一项重要研究成果。
这两项重大标志性成果是在国家和 |
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h*d
发帖数: 19309 | 17 发信人: Bueno (赚钱中), 信区: LifeScience
标 题: Re: 施一公的清华团队在Science发表了错误论文怎么办？
发信站: 水木社区 (Thu Jul 9 09:34:58 2009), 站内
没有确切结论之前，为什么只相信外国人的结果呢？上来就说错误，挺奇怪的
发信人: McKinsey (Guesstimate), 信区: LifeScience
标 题: Re: 施一公的清华团队在Science发表了错误论文怎么办？
发信站: 水木社区 (Thu Jul 9 10:18:54 2009), 站内
说得好。
我现在很鄙视方舟子，总是拣树大招风的老实人咬，国内比施一公腐败得多的
有权有势的他不敢咬。况且他有什么权威指责施一公的结果就是错的？他根本
不作研究不懂学术，只是一个靠摆弄噱头炒作自己的投机者。
发信人: lidongguo (神助意淫者), 信区: LifeScience
标 题: Re: 施一公的清华团队在Science发表了错误论文怎么办？
发信站: 水木社区 (Thu Jul 9 10:23:04 2009), 站内
谨慎估计又 |
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发帖数: 1 | 18 Two Graduate Research Assistant (GRA) positions are available at Dr. Wu’s
research group in the Department of Civil, Architectural, and Environmental
Engineering at Missouri University of Science and Technology (formerly
University of Missouri at Rolla). The students will be involved in
interdisciplinary researches in chemistry, physics, material science,
computational and experimental mechanics.
The candidates should have a bachelor’s degree in material science,
aerospace engineering, mechanica... 阅读全帖 |
|
发帖数: 1 | 19 Two Graduate Research Assistant (GRA) positions are available at Dr. Wu’s
research group in the Department of Civil, Architectural, and Environmental
Engineering at Missouri University of Science and Technology (formerly
University of Missouri at Rolla). The students will be involved in
interdisciplinary researches in chemistry, physics, material science,
computational and experimental mechanics.
The candidates should have a bachelor’s degree in material science,
aerospace engineering, mechanica... 阅读全帖 |
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m****s
发帖数: 402 | 20 See your poor "NIPS", and then your ignorance,
=============================================
ICCV and ECCV have CiteSeer impact factor rankings in the top 5% and 7%, respectively, of all computer science journals and conferences.
SIGGRAPH (ACM Transaction graphics) is the 9th ranked publication for all computer science (in the top 0.57% of computer science),
ICCV (International Conference Computer Vision): 58th (top 4.75%),
ECCV: 88th (top 7.20%),
IEEE Transactions on Pattern Analysis and Machin |
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d******e
发帖数: 7844 | 21 呵呵，你果然是个外行。
respectively, of all computer science journals and conferences.
computer science (in the top 0.57% of computer science),
8 .43%), |
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c***c
发帖数: 21374 | 22 【 以下文字转载自 Military 讨论区 】
发信人: cynic (cynic@mitbbs 1998->2010->?), 信区: Military
标 题: Online Master of Science in Computer Science from Georgia Tech
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Jul 21 18:41:38 2013, 美东)
https://www.udacity.com/georgiatech
据说一个program只要6000块，大量运用online video
估计类似的以后会越来越普遍 |
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q*j
发帖数: 156 | 23 The Department of Computer Science at Armstrong Atlantic State
University, Savannah, Georgia, invites applications for several
tenure-track, 9-month
positions in Computer Science. The appointments will begin January
2000. Candidates should have a Ph.D. in Computer Science or a related
field. Salary is competitive.
Applicants should send a letter of interest, CV, and have three letters
of reference sent to Professor Raymond Greenlaw (Head), Attn: Faculty
Search, Armstrong Atlantic State Uni |
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r*****3
发帖数: 143 | 24 Have you ever wondered whether the forensic science you’ve seen on TV is
anything like the real thing? There’s no better way to find out than to
roll up your sleeves and do it yourself. This full-color book offers advice
for setting up an inexpensive home lab, and includes more than 50 hands-on
lab sessions that deal with forensic science experiments in biology,
chemistry, and physics. You’ll learn the practical skills and fundamental
knowledge needed to pursue forensics as a lifelong hobby—or e... 阅读全帖 |
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发帖数: 1 | 25 UTA招数名博士职位，方向 Data Science/Machine Learning/AI，
实验室COSMOS和大公司AI业界前沿联系紧密, 学生在工业界或学术界发展机会很多。
COSMOS最近毕业PhD有去NVIDIA, IBM，AA, Samsung/Harman工作，也有去top school,
like Harvard, USC, Washington University
做教职或博后。
如果对申请博士项目感兴趣，可以尽快和Dr. Wang联系[email protected] 本人是UTA
COSMOS毕业生，非常推荐Dr. Wang！UT Arlington 位于美国人口第四大的DFW地区，是
目前美国经济发展最好的区域之一，生活丰富便利，大公司密集，实习和工作机会很多
。DFW机场有北京，上海，香港的直飞航线。
===========================================================
PhD Openings in Data Mining & Machine Learning & AI for Fall 201... 阅读全帖 |
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n****n
发帖数: 492 | 27 你说的很多有道理，但是有些我不同意
1，说science的创新是钱堆出来的，我不认为。对于生物学，钱也许是必要条件，但不
是充分条件。而对于某些学科，比如数学，钱究竟有多重要？我觉得甚至都不是必要条
件。
2，google，ebay，yahoo确实没能打赢本土企业，但问题是我们的本土企业都是copy人
家的东西，然后占着天时，地理，人和，战胜了对手。
3，基本同意，中国这个大市场绝对是本土企业的非常大的优势，这是日韩所没有的
4，同意。但我还是忍不住说，对于很多不爱学外语的人来说，这是个障碍，至少我自
己在读研究生之前是痛恨英语的。对于很多喜欢外语的人，也需要付出额外的精力。
1，很多人都说中国缺乏创新，还追溯到儒家文化等等因素。我觉得其实还是和当前的
制度政策有
关。以前说国内做不出出色的工作，连cns也发不了，也归结到缺乏创新文化，难道现
在cns 文章多了，是因为突然有了创新文化？其实science里面的创新，主要还是钱堆
出来的，有了钱，做到大致公平的分配，总有人冒出一些稀奇的发现和想法的。相反，
我觉得中国人的鬼点子多得很，也一样会用到science的。
2，IT他说的也很 |
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S****r
发帖数: 982 | 28 刚发现我们去年的一篇Mol Cell上的paper被Science Signaling选为Editor's choice
，并且有详细的报道。不是非常清楚，这个是不是相当于comments，能不能作为Eb1申
请的媒体报道?
另外，Science's STKE 两年前才改为Science Signaling，也看不到具体的impact因子
，这个杂志的权威性怎样？
多谢！ |
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k******g
发帖数: 38 | 29 这个一作是一个人,一期science,2篇research article
Identification of SCF ubiquitin ligase substrates by global protein
stability profiling.
Yen HC, Elledge SJ.
Science. 2008 Nov 7;322(5903):923-9.PMID: 18988848 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE]Related articlesFree article
Global protein stability profiling in mammalian cells.
Yen HC, Xu Q, Chou DM, Zhao Z, Elledge SJ.
Science. 2008 Nov 7;322(5903):918-23. |
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x*****a
发帖数: 972 | 31 Science上有过非hard science的文章么？我怎么没看到过呢？
science在经济学有这么大的分量？ |
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S***x
发帖数: 2382 | 32 check this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
不是说分量大，而是说science是physical的东西，经济学的假定太多，一般不符合
physical的要求，但是如果发了science,说明这个发现是几乎没有假定的东西，这样的
东西一般都是foundation stone了。
science这种杂志对科学领域不是太selective,但是对经济学那是extremely selective,所以能选上的一定是重量级发现，呵呵 |
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f*********e
发帖数: 179 | 33 There are two open PhD positions with full financial support, starting early
2011 to work in the area of Food Safety and Nanotechnology. Students will
study in the Food Science program in the Division of Food Systems &
Bioengineering at the University of Missouri, Columbia, Missouri (www.
missouri.edu),
Desired qualifications: an earned Master’s degree in food science, biology,
biochemistry, nutrition, agriculture, plant sciences, and other related
field.
If you are interested, please send your ... 阅读全帖 |
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y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 34 Double trouble? To throw cash at science is a mistake
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101110/full/468135a.html
Quote:
If Congress wanted to allocate scarce new R&D resources wisely during a
protracted period of budgetary austerity, it wouldn't adopt a doubling
strategy, but would instead take a more surgical approach to set priorities.
It would focus investments where links between science and application are
well established, to deliver short- to medium-term benefits. Alternative
energy, for ex... 阅读全帖 |
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z*h
发帖数: 773 | 35 When I was graduate, I did plant cell culture without phosphate. Clearly,
cells grew by several-fold without phosphate or arsenic. Can I claim that a
special plant cell culture can grow without phosphate, only five elements
needed. The real trick is that the plant cells store a lot of phosphate in
the initially-tested cells. The NASA paper may have the same situation.
Some one has commented this possibility in the same issue of Science.
Clearly, Science editors are zo shameless to ignore this... 阅读全帖 |
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j*****9
发帖数: 716 | 36 http://scienceblogs.com/webeasties/2010/12/guest_post_arsenate-based_dna.php
In the wake of the NASA excitement over the new arsenic study, and my
promise to give a detailed review of the paper itself, I have recruited a
colleague with strong opinons about the work, a solid chemistry and
microbiology background, and "Dr." in front of his name to share his
analysis. I will be posting have posted my personal and less-technical take
on the whole thing soon, so stay tuned as well.
Dr. Alex Bradley u... 阅读全帖 |
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m*******r
发帖数: 7495 | 37 科学也可以像精灵的舞蹈一样优美，一切取决于发现者的眼睛。
展开想象的翅膀，你可以为艺术在life science中寻找到落脚点。
一期science杂志的封面，展现出成千上万yeast重叠生长所诞生的奇观：造型别致，宛
如一朵纯洁无瑕的白牡丹在静静地绽放。
大自然，绿，应和着阳光雨露，清新脱俗，美丽动人，处处散发着流动的生命色光彩。
你是否想过，cell像什么？答案可以千奇百怪，有一种回答如此：
Cell像一个city。Town hall是nucleus，城内千军万马的总指挥台；transportation
system是细胞的cytoskeleton，协调主管能源物资运输；mail是messenger，肩负信息
流通的重任；警察局是cell的defense system，维护和平安定的生活；人就像protein
，在不同岗位发挥着各自的功能。
想象是在宏观与微观，现实与虚幻，过去与未来中跳跃奔放的五线谱。是引导life
science不懈发展的神女火炬之光。
人类一思考，上帝就发笑。但是，人若停止想象，上帝将不复存在。
PS: 题目取得太大了，现在写它水平还太浅。就此搁笔，也许两年后... 阅读全帖 |
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z***d
发帖数: 131 | 38 Why do you think Sci Translational Med is a good journal? Just because it is
published from Science/AAAS's group?
I did some research and found that 5 out 5 research articles or perspectives
published more than one year ago only have 0-3 citations. So I think the
impact factor will be nowhere near Science's, maybe even lower than PLoS ONE.
will
. |
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z***d
发帖数: 131 | 39 2010 IF for Science Translational Medicine is 3.511, while Science Signaling
ranks higher (6.12).
much |
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D***a
发帖数: 516 | 40 我们单位订了science网络版，但这两个杂志都没订。有时候我想看上面的文章也看不
了，当然也引用不了。如果它们是开放的或者跟science是同样权限，影响因子会更高
些。
Signaling |
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t******n
发帖数: 6242 | 41 收到Science发来的email，
Attention Molecular Biology Ph.D. Graduates of 2010
Did you receive your Ph.D. in molecular biology in 2010? If so,
apply for The GE & Science Prize for Young Life Scientists where
you could win $25,000 and be published in Science magazine. You
will win a trip to Sweden to accept your award at the Grand Hotel
in Stockholm and participate in a seminar with Nobel Laureates.
All it takes is a 1,000-word essay by August 1.
Find out more at www.gescienceprize.org |
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V******9
发帖数: 1281 | 42 【 以下文字转载自 Joke 讨论区 】
发信人: krukawa (崽崽妈), 信区: Joke
标 题: nature and science
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Mon Jun 13 18:42:17 2011, 美东)
发信人: huihust (火马), 信区: Joke
标 题: 有个期刊： nature and science
发信站: 水木社区 (Mon Jun 13 23:06:25 2011), 站内
老板对我们师兄弟说，你们每个人都投一篇，以后在简历上写：published papers on
nature and science
网址：https://www.msu.edu/~isa/ |
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p****n
发帖数: 9263 | 43 【 以下文字转载自 Joke 讨论区 】
发信人: krukawa (崽崽妈), 信区: Joke
标 题: nature and science
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Mon Jun 13 18:42:17 2011, 美东)
发信人: huihust (火马), 信区: Joke
标 题: 有个期刊： nature and science
发信站: 水木社区 (Mon Jun 13 23:06:25 2011), 站内
老板对我们师兄弟说，你们每个人都投一篇，以后在简历上写：published papers on
nature and science
网址：https://www.msu.edu/~isa/ |
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s******y
发帖数: 28562 | 44 嗯，我老板也是这么说的：
恐龙化石－－〉Nature
超新星－－〉Science
虽然Nature 也发关于天文的文章，但是会要求比较高，同理，Science也发有关
化石的文章，但是会对其有关意义比较挑剔。
然后对于生物学的文章而言，Nature 和Science对文章的新意要求比较高，
Cell对故事的完整性要求比较高，数据要特别多（除非是特别热门的话题）。 |
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C**********P
发帖数: 1004 | 45 science是美国杂志，nature是英国杂志吧。
这两个没啥区别，nature办子刊起步早一点，现在基本是个巨无霸，science在子刊方
面落后nature和cell太多了，不过就本刊而言，二者没有区别，都是100多年的老牌杂
志，倒是cell，有点像暴发户。
Science |
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j****x
发帖数: 1704 | 46 生物通报道：Science杂志自2002年开始每年都要进行生物科技领域“最佳雇主”网上调
查，主要测评对象是生物技术、生物制药、传统制药以及相关行业的公司。
近期Science公布了2011年的生命科学行业最佳雇主，此次网上调查的受访者主要包括“
美国科学促进会”会员、该促进会网站的“科学职业”子网站的注册会员以及《科学》
杂志网站的注册者等，受访者需要针对23项特征标准对目前行业内雇主进行评价，这些
标准包括财政实力，对变化的适应性，以及科研环境。
今年来自美国麻省的Vertex生物技术制药公司从去年的第三名攀升至榜首，这是这家公
司第一次夺得最受尊敬的生物制药雇主桂冠，排在其后的分别是纽约的Regeneron制药公
司，以及加州Genentech公司——Genentech公司曾在过去的10年评选中获得过8次最佳雇
主的称号。
Vertex公司是一家专注于研究口服小分子药剂新的开发方法，使用基于结构的合理药剂
进行设计的先驱性的医药品研究开发企业，主要设计开发防止HIV感染、AIDS自免疫系统
缺失、癌症、血红蛋白障碍、炎症等新药。近年来这家公司的一些新药频受关注，比如
今年，其囊性... 阅读全帖 |
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p*****c
发帖数: 20445 | 47 【 以下文字转载自 Military 讨论区 】
发信人: pacific (hh), 信区: Military
标 题: 中东和平研究论文都发Science了
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Sep 22 14:38:07 2011, 美东)
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6050/1767.full
Published Online August 25 2011
Science 23 September 2011:
Vol. 333 no. 6050 pp. 1767-1769
DOI: 10.1126/science.1202925
Report
Promoting the Middle East Peace Process by Changing Beliefs About Group
Malleability
Eran Halperin1,
Alexandra G. Russell2,
Kali H. Trzesniewski3,
James J. Gross2,
Carol S.... 阅读全帖 |
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c********d
发帖数: 118 | 49 Functional Links Between Aβ Toxicity, Endocytic Trafficking, and Alzheimer
’s Disease Risk Factors in Yeast
Science express
Science DOI: 10.1126/science.1213210
Thanks very much for your help
E-Mail:
z*****[email protected] |
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w******n
发帖数: 371 | 50 标 题: 2012中国大学Nature & Science论文排行榜zz
发信站: 紫丁香社区 (Sun Jan 15 09:29:23 2012), 站内
http://edu.qq.com/a/20120109/000392.htm
《Nature》和《Science》杂志受到世界各国广大科技工作者特别是高校基础研究人员
的
极大关注，对指导高校提高自主创新能力和学术水平有着重要的应用价值。多年来，我
国高校科技工作者努力创造高水平的科研论文向两刊投稿，力图使中国的科研成果走向
世界，扩大影响，取得了不小的成绩。中国校友会网“2012中国大学nature&science论
文排行榜”是以1998年至2011年我国高校在《自然》和《科学》杂志上以第一作者单位
发表的论文数量为基础统计得出，是衡量高校知识创新贡献力的重要标尺，是反映我国
高校基础研究能力与学术创造力的重要标志。
大学名字 发表篇数
清华大学 24
北京大学 14
中国科技大学 13
复旦大学 1... 阅读全帖 |
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